Thursday, May 9, 2013
Seeking advice
I'm defending my phd next week and considering a staff job at llnl, for which I'm being courted.
Good idea?
Terrible idea?
Better off at a university with a low paying post-doc?
Why?
I'm asking you because the blog makes it seems like the lab is literally falling apart at the seams. How much truth is there in that?
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55 comments:
The Lab is not falling apart at the seams. There will still be thousands of people doing good, interesting work. If the team that is courting you is a good fit for your technical interests, continue to give it serious consideration.
Network with some post-docs at LLNL and get their perspectives. Blogs do not attract deliriously happy people.
Good luck wherever you land next!
Well, LLNL just announced a voluntary separation plan aiming to jettison 600 employees in the next month driven by budget cuts. What kind of future do you suppose they're recruiting you for?
Contact some postdocs and recently converted staff in your field and ask them what their job prospects are. The current financial turmoil is definitely having an adverse effect.
Regarding this blog, it is prone to hyperbole, but it does reflect real problems at LLNL.
Dear almost a PhD, you have really chosen a strange place to pose such a question. LLNL overall is a good and prestigious place to work, but of course in this blog you will find mostly negative comments by sour, obsessed and rather sad people. There are some folks on here who are literally obsessed with LLNL failing. Talk to people at the places you are interviewing with directly and make an informed decision. You should know how to do this.
The thing is this: LLNL is probably never going away, but it will continue to shrink and the funding will transition to soft money, short term, competitive grant contracts. So your position will be ever more unstable, the competition will get even more cut-throat and overhead costs will rise, making it really hard to get grants and to compete.
It will also be hard to get promoted because the lab will be downsizing, not growing, so there will be no empty spots for promotion to.
LLNL is still a good place to spend for 2-4 years after PhD to pad your resume and move on to something better. But the bottom line is that if you work for a shrinking organization, it will be very hard to advance your career in the long run.
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Anonymous
May 9, 2013 at 12:36 PM
Congrats on your PhD!
It's pretty dangerous to ask the "good idea/bad idea" question on this blog. As you can see if you look through virtually ANY thread on this blog, there are some very extreme negative viewpoints, and as you get to know those viewpoints, it's pretty clear that they're not what you'd call unbiased observers. So make sure to take that into account as you weigh the responses.
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Anonymous
May 9, 2013 at 1:54 PM
Alot of the stuff in the blog wouldn't really apply to early career folks, unless you expect and require job security and lifelong employment. Of course, if you are supporting programmatic (nnsa) weapons work, you should expect greater job security overall compared to, say, basic research in unrelated fields. If you are cognizant about making decisions and doing work that benefits you and your own career development, there is little risk of early-career candidates taking a job at LLNL being a bad decision. My first job was at the lab and it was a great stepping stone for me. Hard work and constantly learning and improving, building up my expertise and capabilities, opened up many more career options and possibilities.
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Anonymous
May 9, 2013 at 2:03 PM
Good salaries
Great location and weather
Friendly casual environment
Beach volley ball pit
Greater networking opportunities with Internet and high tech sector (if you want to make a career change or job change)
Whether the job turns out good is largely dependent on you, your expectations, your goals, and how hard you are willing to work to reach those goals. If you are a "glass is half empty" kind of person, the complaints you read about here may bother and distract you more than you might have wanted. Most people are able to function fine at the lab.
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Anonymous
May 9, 2013 at 4:28 PM
"Alot of the stuff in the blog wouldn't really apply to early career folks"
I agree. All the pension, VSP/VSIP, politics at major-player levels, etc wouldn't really apply to you.
If you sense a good vibe with the leader and colleagues of the group you'd be working in, and the work is of interest to you, by all means go for it!
Most of the people on this blog are comparing the current lab to the past lab (which was pretty incredible), you will just be comparing it to the other offers you have, if it stacks up favorably, choose it. If you end up not liking it, ton of universities / silicon valley / bio companies to jump ship to.
Long Term: I think the trend for the lab is inexorably downward (due to many factors both internal and external), but spending a few years here could be great for you and your career.
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Anonymous
May 9, 2013 at 5:49 PM
I came to the lab (SNL/LLNL/LANL) as a staff right after finishing my PhD about 2 years ago. It is totally clear to me that the entire NNSA complex is going downhill, but you can milk it for 2-5 years and jump ship to academia or industry. So the lab still makes good stepping stone, but only people of low ambition remain there more than 5 years nowadays. There is no pension anymore for people who joined with the past few years. There is a good ole boys club that makes it hard for young people to get funding. So if you come in with some funding, you can milk it for a few years to build your resume for IBM or Google or a university.
So I would take a staff offer and milk it. Just don't expect to stay there unless you are lazy or stupid or some combination. For you old farts, this doesn't apply since you got in before it tanked.
I left "LLNL" 5 years after it became LLNS. LLNL was a great place to work - exciting and challenging, but those days are gone. I now work at a DOE Science Lab (ORNL) where exciting things happen daily and where I work with a dedicated and skilled staff. It reminds me of "LLNL" during the 80s to 90s heady years, when I was truly excited to come to work. Consider a DOE Science Lab if you want to have a forward-looking and fun career!
You probably have better options. If not, you are just the sort of person LLNS loves to have on board!
If you're going to come to work at LLNL I'd be looking at Global Security ( ONLY ). At least in that group you'll be helping the nation and doing something useful. NIF, Weapons & C&MS is OUT !
If you have no other option, LLNL is worth trying for a couple of years. I agree with others that as an institution it's trajectory is downhill, much faster than many of us had expected. One has to wonder about Lab closure in these tough financial times. It is not a merit based culture and an ambitious and talented young scientist has to be careful not to threaten the status quo. Finally, a common complaint among recent recruits is that they were hired to do science but they are not doing it.
"Finally, a common complaint among recent recruits is that they were hired to do science but they are not doing it.
May 10, 2013 at 7:03 AM"
Many posters on this blog are rather bitter and can give you a tainted picture. Keeping that in mind I do agree with the statement above about the feelings of recent hires. It is not just that science is not being done it seems that it almost has no place in higher goals of the institute. It is a for-profit institution now so what brings in profit is the driver. Remarkably science has little if anything to do with the profit part. If 50% less science was done this year it would not make dent in the profit.
The unspoken reality on the ground is that the "new" LLNL needs far fewer PhDs, consistent with a trend in industry throughout the country. Technicians and engineers will and should dominate the future LLNL workforce.
It's difficult to predict what LLNL program(s) will rise from the ashes of NIF. A lot of hope is pinned on global security and nuclear forensics but there is little if any real science in either and we have yet to establish national recognition not to mention daunting competition from the long-established agencies who themselves are under unprecedented fiscal pressure.
If you have survived the grind of obtaining a PhD then and you owe yourself a 1-2 postdoc. You may find as I did that the postdoc years are among the most enjoyable and formative period of your scientific career.
Don't take an academic post-doc unless you really are trying to become an academic. That is indentured servitude. For all the lab's quirks (which won't affect you for your first 5 years in your career anyways), the salary and people are very good. And what many have said is very true. It is an excellent springboard for your next move, opening up many doors for you.
While I consider myself as someone who posts some of the most viciously cutting comments (all of which are true, by the way) against certain individuals and groups (good ole boy network) at the lab, I would honestly say that for a new career PhDs, the lab is a really great place to start their career. You will not be affected by any of these people early on. Only later, maybe in 2-3 years when you have to start considering promotions and your own career development, might you start seeing their effects (either blocking you, or getting you to become one of the golden boys), depending on which programs you are supporting. Some organizations are much better and less in-bred than others.
So long as you have your eyes wide open and you don't have any ridiculous expectations for yourself (demand to do 100% science and 0% program, demand for job security, etc.) you will have no problem there and you will in fact have a great time and be able to build your career and resume.
That's what it is all about anyways. It's just about national service, or money, or prestige. Everything you do is about building up your resume and your career to give get you to where you want to go, and to give yourself career independence (and mobility, if needed).
*not just
Thanks for the advice folks. Seems murky. I'll take these gems into account (and I'll call some young hires for their perspectives).
- Almost PhD
Not that murky - if you don't have a spot lined up at a top academic lab where you can get lots of publications and become an academic stud, then spend 2 years at LLNL while you look for that position. You make more $, you get to work with really nice people in a really nice place, and you buy yourself time. Similar argument if you DON'T want academia, but (also) don't have a killer spot lined up.
Most of the people who complain about their lab jobs have never worked anywhere else and have no clue what the real workforce is like nor how good they have it. They tend to be prima donnas who think the world owes them something. Talk to people who have worked somewhere else for a few years before coming to LLNL and see how they feel. Everything is relative.
Some of the above commentary reveals yet another aspect of LLNL culture you should be aware of, the ingrained anti-academia sentiment. Much of the blame rests on the shoulders of the UC Faculty Senate whose historic disdain for UC management of LANL and LLNL was no secret, not to mention the widespread and comparatively valid perception within the research community that the Labs were awash with easy research money obtained without the niceties of peer review.
May 10, 2013 at 6:06 PM
I have spent several years in academia as well as industry, and I can say that each has it's differences, it's pluses and minuses. However, I agree with many of the highly critical assessments of working at LLNL that are written on this blog. Your sweeping generalization has no basis.
Almost phd: working at LLNL for 2-3years would give you such perspective, which can be useful in adjusting to different work cultures. I highly recommend starting your career at a national lab, but urge you to seek higher ground elsewhere to build a career.
HEY - The guy said "thank you" 5 posts ago, so I think you can all shut up now. No one is listening anymore.
There are still good points at LLNL for postdoc but the long term stability is low. As long as you keep that in mind than it should be ok. There are many other labs like Oak Ridge where the future looks bright so keep these in mind.
In recent years in my area I've seen a lot of young post-docs coming to the Lab and doing good work here but then moving on to industry or academia rather than staying. That seems to be a good strategy: Using the Lab as a stepping stone to gain some experience before moving onto greener pastures. I honestly don't think that I would be trying to make a career at the Lab if I were a young post-doc. There are just better growth opportunities out there.
I'm not in the same position as the almost phd but I'm getting there and I'm glad there are posters willing to share. For myself, this and any more information is helpful, as we start out with Zero knowledge about the lab culture and environment. Like how much independent research a postdoc or new staff able to pursue, expectations for proposal writing and seeking funding, etc.
Many of the Lawrence fellows are disappointments, becoming golden boys and propped up by the lab by being given awards and appointments that they didn't earn. Awards for work they had no involvement in... They should have returned those, but they are too comfortable with having power with no accountability. Their talent completely wasted, in fact. This is how corruption propagates at the lab through time. You aren't going to take an ethical stand all of a sudden if you have been the beneficiary of the corrupt system for many years. This is the sad partner LLNL. The golden boy network and how promotion and awards are often not based on merit. If you work in a "headline" field like stockpile stewardship or NIF you will see these golden boys up close and your only job is to justify their existence.
Check the facts, LLNS has just lost a descrimination case for illegally laying off over 400 older and senior employees. Think about your future.
HEY - The guy said "thank you" 11 posts ago, so I think you can all shut up now. No one is listening anymore. My God what is wrong with you people?
The good news is Parney is the first ULM in six years that is not corrupt. LLNL actually has a Director that is an honest, good guy. The bad news is the sewer between him and the employees.
"HEY - The guy said "thank you" 11 posts ago, so I think you can all shut up now. No one is listening anymore."
You are, and so is that other young almost-PhD that checked in at 5:39pm on 5/11 looking for insights on the Lab. There may be other young people checking in, too.
These topics are important for future candidates as well. They can search the internet/wayback machine/this blog and come across various perspectives at various times.
This blog isn't a real-time thing that evaporates into the ether. It's a resource.
""HEY - The guy said "thank you" 11 posts ago,"
I don't believe the PhD candidate disclosed her/his gender, which raises another cultural aspect of LLNL. It's still a white male dominated culture and there are almost no women in senior scientific positions or management.
LLNL is fine. It will be a good starting point. It will survive the current nonsense. Most of the issues have to do with perceived broken covenants that you will not be a party to. If you want a stable job to raise a family, LLNL is your place. If you want something different, it depends.
If you are a very sharp woman or minority applicant, you will do quite well.
May 11, 2013 at 5:39 PM had more questions, looks like a different PhD student.
That is reason enough to keep posting to the thread.
Sad how Lab managers or their proxies are trying to shut down discussion on topics that are embarrassing to them, using lame excuses.
They attract you to LANL to do all the elegant and prestigious science and engineering, however, what they don't tell you is after a few years they will transfer you into some really "shitty" jobs at the nuclear facilities. Don't do it!
what they don't tell you is after a few years they will transfer you into some really "shitty" jobs at the nuclear facilities. Don't do it!
May 12, 2013 at 4:11 PM
If you take a job at LANL or LLNL and don't have a ready "escape route" to a better job, you are a fool. If you have the capability to respond to a stupid or (to your career) meaningless job transfer with "no thanks, I'll move on to something better" then the corporate hacks will think twice about hiring the "best and the brightest." Highly qualified candidates will be passed over for future drones. The death spiral begins.
The other important thing is most of the lovely young women are ahppily married. Its kinda isolated for a single guy. Good if you are gay or beyond gender interest though.
Or have an interest in horses.
Or have an interest in horses.
May 12, 2013 at 10:48 PM
or Parney.
I'm interested in what was meant by (May 12, 2013 at 10:26 AM) "If you are a very sharp woman or minority applicant, you will do quite well." Was that tongue-in-cheek bias ? An expression of perceived or actual reverse-discrimination ? Or - the opposite, a sarcastic warning that women and minorities experience extra hurdles ?
I too would like to hear a response to that one. It's not tongue-in-cheek ha ha because having over 10 years of experience there, and seeing dismissive and insulting treatment of women staff by some old guard management and a few non management old farts, there is a pervasive culture of cynicism, treating "affirmative action" and "gender equality" as "politically correct bullshit." Now, not all of the management there is that stupid. Most are well trained and professional. But I can put specific names to people who have made similarly cynical remarks and who are likely to keep repeating them. Parney doesn't get to hear about all these "cases" from his management, but he needs to know. He doesn't need yet another lawsuit to suck away at their management fee.
PC Police alert!
You don't have to go far on this blog to learn about attitudes towards women, as the following posting on the "Pu in NIF" thread illustrates:
"Minute amounts of Pu are in the local environment with immeasurable effects.
Unless you frighten easily.
Calm down ladies.
May 13, 2013 at 2:10 PM"
That's right folks, if you are against vaporizing plutonium in a highly populated area you are not just a bleeding heart liberal,a Commie or even an anti-nuke activist. You are a female.
That should answer all of your questions about stereotypes and perceptions of women employees (and women in general) by those people associated with the lab.
Thank you for proving my point.
The chicken little in the reference was self-identified, Marylia Kelley, who could calm down.
Almost all of the other derision in this blog is directed toward men, a fair and well balanced bashing.
So calm down ladies and lovers of ladies.
Male-specific derision? That's nowhere to be seen.
"...just a bleeding heart liberal,a Commie or even an anti-nuke activist. You are a female."
You seriously don't see your own misogyny? And you are a "supporter" of the lab? We don't need people like you. We don't want people like you. People in organizations like Tri-Valley Care are better for the lab than people like you are. Find some other organization to attach your ignorance to.
So the misogynist / health-effects denyer / religious right-wing extremist IS connected to the lab and is in some way closely associated with the programs! Subcontractor, consultant, current of former employee of LLNL/LANL or NNSA. Surprise surprise. I thought I was dealing with a random troll for the longest time.
Most LLNL employees and managers are decent and honest. There are a few very bad apples though. Racists, mysogynists. The extremist posting on this blog is one of them. Part of the good ole boy's club at the lab.
"Minute amounts of Pu are in the local environment with immeasurable effects.
Unless you frighten easily.
Calm down ladies.
May 13, 2013 at 2:10 PM"
"The chicken little in the reference was self-identified, Marylia Kelley, who could calm down.
Almost all of the other derision in this blog is directed toward men, a fair and well balanced bashing.
So calm down ladies and lovers of ladies."
May 14, 2013 at 10:08 PM
Welcome to LLNL. As I said before, most people are decent. Only a few ignorant employees like the one posting the above, will give women and minorities and LGBT individuals problems at the lab. Some organizations more than others protect and shield these types of risky employees.
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