Actual post from Dec. 15 from one of the streams. This is a real topic.
As far as promoting women and minorities even if their qualifications are not as good as the white male scientists, I am all for it. We need diversity at the lab and if that is what it takes, so be it.
Quit your whining. Look around the lab, what do you see? White male geezers. How many African Americans do you see at the lab? Virtually none. LLNL is one of the MOST undiverse places you will see. Face it folks, LLNL is an institution of white male privilege and they don't want to give up their privileged positions. California, a state of majority Hispanics has the "crown jewel" LLNL nestled in the middle of it with very FEW Hispanics at all!
78 comments:
I don't see that many Asians on US pro basket ball teams. I think the teams must be discriminating.
FYI: If you are a minority, don't count on the EEOC or the OFCCP to help you resolve LANSLLNS employment practices.
Unlike decades ago when these two federal agencies had real authority, today each of these DOL agencies, through successive employer driven lawsuits and judgements in the employer's favor, have made the OFCCP and EEOC effectively irrelevant. The OFCCP and EEOC can only address disparities or employer retaliatory actions so blatant, that the typical 5th grader could comprehend, and only if such a situation falls in their lap not requiring employer mandated disclosures.
However true, LANSLLNS will use any employee's attempt at using either of these two agencies or the DFEH as grounds to dismiss any DOE related (or not) complaint against LANSLLNS.
Choice your resolution path carefully and only after you fully understand the investigative authority of the selected agency to address your workplace concerns.
Don't count on any minority lab manager with or without a programmatic diversity function to assist you either. They didn't get into and advance in lab management by voicing lab minority employment practice concerns and they know it. That task is for the sacrificial minority lab employees not them.
People with high IQ's are a minority at Sandia.
Only anger from the original rant, and not a care in the world for content of character.
"...Don't count on any minority lab manager with or without a programmatic diversity function to assist you either. They didn't get into and advance in lab management by voicing lab minority employment practice concerns and they know it..."
Unfortunately it is precisely these minority managers that are sent on LANSLLNS programmatic recruiting missions to minority colleges and universities across the country while waving the lab diversity flag to prospective employees.
Minority students would be better served by speaking to minority and non-minority lab employees that don't work in the lab recruiting sales department, then consider all employment options accordingly.
"California, a state of majority Hispanics has the "crown jewel" LLNL nestled in the middle of it with very FEW Hispanics at all!"
Maybe, just maybe, that's because there aren't many hispanics in science and engineering? Would you propose to hire all of them, substandard and all, just to bring up the hispanic employment percentage numbers?
"...Maybe, just maybe, that's because there aren't many hispanics in science and engineering? Would you propose to hire all of them, substandard and all, just to bring up the hispanic employment percentage numbers?.."
Your comment applies to white women too, the biggest beneficiary of diversity driven recruitment and promotions at the lab.
Your comment applies to white women too, the biggest beneficiary of diversity driven recruitment and promotions at the lab.
December 18, 2014 at 10:41 PM
Yes it does, for the same reasons. And I cannot think of a single black woman scientist that I have ever worked with, at the lab or anywhere else. Which again simply means, very few black women decide to make professional careers in these fields. If someone decides this is a problem and wants to correct it, the place to correct it is schools, probably starting in elementary school. You don't correct it by preferential hiring, because that is discrimination on the basis of race and sex and because the result will necessarily be a dumbing-down of the workforce.
"... You don't correct it by preferential hiring, because that is discrimination on the basis of race and sex and because the result will necessarily be a dumbing-down of the workforce..."
How should the lab correct the preferential hiring and promotions into management we already have if you are correct and we have a "dumbing-down" selection and promotion process? Demotion of employees and managers?
I assume you do recognize our less than ideal selection and promotion process regularly benefits employees outside the minority category?
There are plenty of inadequately qualified hires and promotions at the lab for white employees, military veterans, and "good old boys". Are we going to identify and demote them as well? Many of these materially under qualified employees were selected over more qualified minorities. A shocking revelation I know.
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
How should the lab correct the preferential hiring and promotions into management we already have if you are correct and we have a "dumbing-down" selection and promotion process? Demotion of employees and managers?
December 19, 2014 at 7:47 AM
Yes, of course. Based on performance and SKAs, not on sex or race. It's incredibly naive to think that sex-based promotions do not occur regularly, and if you believe that then you aren't a manager.
"...Yes, of course. Based on performance and SKAs, not on sex or race. It's incredibly naive to think that sex-based promotions do not occur regularly, and if you believe that then you aren't a manager..."
If you think white, military veterans, and "good old boy" managers or employees are regularly demoted due to impartially measured subpar SKAs you are likely not a Lab manager or a Lab employee or you are a beneficiary of the status quo.
LLNL is an institution of white male privilege
I grew up below the poverty level. In 6th grade, I broke my ankle and no one took me to the doctor. In 9th grade, I had one pair of pants and one shirt to my name. Many of my classmates, including girls and blacks, made fun of me because of the way I dressed. In high school, I tried to pull an abscessed tooth with a pair of pliers because no one would take me to the dentist (didn't work). There were drugs and abuse at my house, and the police were regular visitors. The police sometimes stopped me on my way home from school just to ask how I was doing (bless the police). I often did my homework and slept in storm sewers near my house. I sometimes went days without eating and would go out at night searching for food in garbage dumpers. I could go on.
I'm white and I'm a man. Exactly, what privilege did I receive? How was I more privileged than a female classmate whose mother was a state supreme court judge? Why should my classmate - who had all the privilege in the world - receive preferential treatment over me?
You are clueless and have no idea what you're talking about. Your comments are racist, sexist, and offensive.
Did you know that the majority of poor people in the United States are white? Yes, this is partially due to demographics, but it also means that race-based diversity ignores the majority of people who are the least privileged.
Since you care so much about diversity, tell me, how many people at the Laboratory grew up in poverty or had parents who never went to or graduated from high school. The Laboratory does not keep such statistics because the Laboratory doesn't care about these people. But isn't this diversity too? Not at the Lab.
Diversity has nothing to do with true diversity. Diversity doesn't seek people with different backgrounds or perspectives. Diversity doesn't seek people who grew up without privilege. Diversity is about racism and sexism. It is about preferential treatment for the most privileged group that has ever existed on the planet - white females. Diversity is about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.
If you thoroughly understand the performance metrics at the lab it is very easy to lower the performance rating of employees with strong SKAs, and equally easy to raise the performance rating of employees with weak SKAs. Does this performance technique happen to everyone? No. Does it happen to some? Yes.
I used to keep track of the unilateral focus on women by the Laboratory. For example, I counted the number of articles in Newsline that focused on women vs the number that focused on men. By focus, I mean the article is specific to the gender (e.g., articles about "women" scientists as opposed to articles about scientists who happen to be women).
From 1995 through 2005, the printed version of Newsline had 479 articles specific to women vs 6 articles specific to men.
In what was then the online version of Newsline (newsonline), the ratio was 378 (women) vs 6 (men).
Between 1996 and 1999, the words "woman" or "women" occurred 256 times in newsonline. The words "man" or "men" occurred 17 times. 12 of these 17 occurrences were in bi-gender phrases such as "man and woman" or "women and men," so the sex specific focus was really 244 (women) vs 5 (men).
In other words, Laboratory-sponsored articles specific to women have been about 50 times more prevalent than articles specific to men. I have no reason to believe it is any different today.
This is seen in other ways too, such as acknowledgements of Mother's Day with no corresponding acknowledgement of Father's Day. Or with the former Laboratory-sponsored "Women's Health Initiative" (the Lab apparently doesn't believe men have any health problems). Or with the HOME campaign, with special focus areas on "women and girls," but no focus areas on "men and boys." Several years ago there were 66 HOME-charities that provided services only to females, vs 10 charities that provided services only to males. All but one of the male charities were associated with the boy scouts. But the boy scouts are bad because they discriminate against homosexual scout masters, yet female-focused charities that discriminate against men are good.
I also kept track of metrics associated with initiative and excellence. Between 1994 and 1999, based on name identification (John vs Susan vs Pat), 865 men were awarded patents vs 31 women (the genders of 41 patent recipients were not discernible). This lopsided ratio cannot be explained by demographics since at that time the percentage of women scientists and engineers at the Laboratory was about 30%. Adjusting for demographics, the ratio is still about 10 to 1.
Likewise, between 1978 and 2002, the breakdown in R&D 100 award recipients was 309 men vs 17 women (plus 13 with unknown genders). Most of the awards came in the more recent years so demographics alone cannot explain the disparity. Again, adjusting for demographics, the ratio is about 10 to 1.
In 2001 and 2004, 41 men vs 3 women received royalties for inventions (based on an email list that may not be all inclusive).
So the Laboratory focuses on women by a 50 to 1 ratio even though men dominate scientific and technical advancements by a 10 to 1 ratio.
It's like the Vietnam war. Approximately 55,000 US men soldiers were killed vs 8 women soldiers. All deaths are acknowledged at the Vietnam War Memorial. However, there is also a special Vietnam War Memorial just for women. Hundreds of thousands of men - really boys - were drafted for the war (talk about the right to do what you want with your own body), yet we go out of our way to acknowledge a so-called "special" contribution of women.
December 19, 2014 at 11:22 AM
So what's your point?
Those are stark statistics. I think the point speaks for itself to those with ears.
IHowever, there is also a special Vietnam War Memorial just for women.
Yes, there is a statue of nurses, acknowledging the many traumas they witnessed and themselves endured. There is also a statue of servicemen that is part of the memorial. Collectively these salute those who died as well as those that served.
Come on, someone has to use the "check your privilege" statement in their argument. Come on!
Being serious now, it is the racist left-wing that goes out and says only white males have privilege and are racist. The left-wingers are more ugly racists than i see from the right-wingers. Sad, isn't it?
Of course, these are the same clowns that get together with Mary-Ann (or whatever her name is) at Tri-Valley Cares and stage their Hiroshima Day. All the while never bringing up once the millions of Asians that the Japanese murdered. Because these bigots are only concerned about what "white" people did, they won't discuss what non-whites did to whites or non-whites.
A pox on all of them!!! yeehaw
"...From 1995 through 2005, the printed version of Newsline had 479 articles specific to women vs 6 articles specific to men..."
Supporting documentation for the diversity recruitment
team.
"Hello students! Please don't attempt to communicate with minority employees at the Lab on your own before you accept our job offer. I'll provide you with the information you request. Work through me, your ethical Lab recruiter and outreach representative. I'll set something up. Here, pass around these Lab diversity fliers. They are a snapshot of our workplace culture and diversity inclusiveness."
Look, the last thing LLNL needs is a true meritocracy. People couldn't handle the results.... the lab would have the demographics of Silicon Valley.
I find it funny how people think it's the lab's responsibility to correct, through racial and gender quotas, societies ills.
For all you "white boys" now you understand what it feels like to be a minority. Get over it!
The Lab has never been a diversity inclusive place to work. Highly compensated Lab minority managers making hoilday or event specific speeches aren't going to change that and in some cases enable it.
Some Lab minorities that hold the Lab diversity flag at opportune times including recruitment events, were some of the loudest employees with "undiversity" complaints in the pre-LLNS era. At least loud to their temporarily useful pre-management minority base of coworkers.
Once these Lab employees moved into management, they were set up for life, with a few unspoken conditions. Pushing away or not acknowledging the minority promotion ladder they climbed on is one thing, but to aim for and drop the ladder on minorities below is a little harsh.
The political underbelly of diversity at the Lab is nothing to be proud of, but it works like a well oiled machine however thin the veil is. If you are a minority with an interest in science and engineering, look carefully at all of your career location options across the country.
How many homeless people are employed at the lab? Yes, we need more diversity. I also think they should replace an employed AmeriKan citizen at the lab with an illegal immigrant, that oughta get the ball rolling.
POS
It's all about to fly apart. This is going to get good. I'm ready are you?
POS
"... It's all about to fly apart..."
No POS, nothing is going to "fly apart". It is just a matter of disclosure and transparency, nothing more.
POS
December 21, 2014 at 12:11 PM
As part of diversity they should also make sure that we hire unstable mentally ill people like POS.
He's "ready." Does that scare the shit out of anyone else but me?
The only things POS is ready for is to have his adult diaper changed by the staff at the psychiatric ward.
For all you "white boys" now you understand what it feels like to be a minority. Get over it!
December 21, 2014 at 3:25 AM
No, I will never understand what it feels like to be a minority. I know Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are bull dung.
Also, when 90% of a given population segment is so predictable as to always vote for 1 party, can there be a real expectation of change for that group?
I'm also glad you put "white" in quotes. Now when you say "white", do you mean caucasian which includes north african? Or when you say "white", do you mean North/west Europe? If you're going to be a bigot, please be clear.
"...For all you "white boys"..."
Using these terms to identify lab employees and coworkers does not contribute to this "LLNL un-diversity" topic.
As a "white boy" I need something explained.
Who is in more need of coddling from an employer -White women or black men?
I would hate to see what it would be like if it were a meritocracy here. Wait, it'd look like Silicon Valley.
and just imagine the whining if the lab had the demographics of Silicon Valley.
What is done in Silicon Valley that cannot be done better and cheaper somewhere else? I say we should should defund SV and shut it down. I
LLNL is a highly heterogeneous culture, at least compared to LANL. LANL is about the most homogeneous place in the country. Perhaps not 100% ABC, like back in the good old days, but still well above 95%.
For those of you that didn't have the experience in person, ask around what ABC stood for.
What is done in Silicon Valley that cannot be done better and cheaper somewhere else? I say we should should defund SV and shut it down. I
December 23, 2014 at 7:45 PM
Answer: Innovation.
Also, if it were so easy to mimic Silicon Valley, why hasn't it been done?... since there's tons of money to be made.
Just do what cops say.
"...LLNL is a highly heterogeneous culture, at least compared to LANL..."
Until you drive out the LLNL gate. Livermore, Pleasanton, and Dublin are not nearly as heterogenous as cities around the SF Bay including Silicon Valley.
I say we should should defund SV and shut it down. I
December 23, 2014 at 7:45 PM
"We" don't fund Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley funds itself. Unlike LLNL.
In GS around 5 years ago I think there was one African American (that I saw anywhere around our building, there might have been others in other buildings). When the layoffs came, out the door he went. Seemed like he did his job well but didn't matter. Shown the door.
We'll there you have it. Hard evidence that LLNL is racist.
The low hanging fruit for layoff selection at LANSLLNS are the most disliked employees that don't have powerful
Lab advocates in their corner. It doesn't have to be about race. Then again, how many Black managers are there in GS or elsewhere at the Lab?
If you were an African-American scientist or engineer, you would understand why it is extremely difficult to live in northern New Mexico. Even the combination of good salary and interesting work is insufficient to overcome the miserable location.
"...The low hanging fruit for layoff selection at LANSLLNS are the most disliked employees that don't have powerful Lab advocates in their corner. It doesn't have to be about race..."
Falling under the "powerful lab advocate" protection, if you are in an "underutilized" minority category at the Lab, your job and career prospects are better than other minorities. I've seen White Women, Black, Hispanic, and Asian layoffs at the Lab. I believe Native Americans are in one of the "underutilized" categories and protected as such. I'm not saying this is right or wrong. It just is.
So it seems that minorities and women have less job security than their white-male colleagues.... really?
If you are outside the subset of minorities that are vigorously hired, promoted, and protected at the Lab, or are not in a lab management clique or programmatic clique, you are very easy prey.
Don't worry too much about this, it's a baby boom generation vestige, like the left-right political tug of war. It dies of as they do. Not a millennial issue, who are more likely to be in racially mixed, non-traditional relationships than to be -ist.
Hire good people.
True, if LANSLLNS were to reflect the make up of the general population, millennials will eventually have more influence at these Labs.
How many millennials are in positions of authority at LANSLLNS now? One must be careful not to confuse the perspectives of millennials in the general population, and the un-diversity island that is LANSLLNS. Yes in 10-20 years, things might be different than the last 60-70 years here.
Millennials in charge, help us all. This group believes diversity for the sake of diversity is the best and most nobel of all acts and Facebook is the greatest company ever founded.
Plus with millennials, you can't tell the men from the women.
... and those feminine cut jeans the guys wear.
Facebook is the greatest company ever founded.
Facebook is one of the greatest companies ever made. What have you done?
Have you been insulted?.... Millennials tend to be a bit thin skinned.
Get back on Facebook and make a friend across the country that has no chance to ever meet you.
oh by the way, the emails about sliding cars on leaves and ladder safety are for you.
oh by the way, the emails about sliding cars on leaves and ladder safety are for you.
December 28, 2014 at 5:03 PM
Sorry if you have no friends. Have you ever helped an app out? Have you ever been part of something that is bigger than you? Have you ever been part of something that connects to every part of the world? I pity you if you do not take part of the future that has been opened up to you. There is a world out there, there are things greater than you could have ever imagined. There are placed, things, worldviews that will rock your foundations to the core. You will realize that that not the center of the world and yet at the same time one who can create entire new worlds.
"and just imagine the whining if the lab had the demographics of Silicon Valley."
December 23, 2014 at 7:47 AM
In the unclassified science areas, we'd all speak Russian, be in the country on visas, and be paid a fraction of what our classified comrades are paid.
In the unclassified science areas, we'd all speak Russian, be in the country on visas, and be paid a fraction of what our classified comrades are paid.
December 29, 2014 at 7:36 AM
That pretty much describes the non-classified ares at LANL.
Sorry if you have no friends. Have you ever helped an app out? Have you ever been part of something that is bigger than you? Have you ever been part of something that connects to every part of the world? I pity you if you do not take part of the future that has been opened up to you. There is a world out there, there are things greater than you could have ever imagined. There are placed, things, worldviews that will rock your foundations to the core. You will realize that that not the center of the world and yet at the same time one who can create entire new worlds.
December 28, 2014 at 7:56 PM
What general jibberish... rambling without any context.
Great things are landing on the moon, ridding the world of smallpox and polio,
not enabling tight fitting jean wearing, >16 year old gaming males to make friends electronically.
should be gibberish
In the unclassified science areas, we'd all speak Russian, be in the country on visas, and be paid a fraction of what our classified comrades are paid.
December 29, 2014 at 7:36 AM
That pretty much describes the non-classified ares at LANL.
December 29, 2014 at 1:55 PM
Second this comment. Under Wallace, this became the norm.
There are placed, things, worldviews that will rock your foundations to the core. You will realize that that not the center of the world and yet at the same time one who can create entire new worlds.
December 28, 2014 at 7:56 PM
Might want to lay off the dope and try to get some spelling and grammar if you claim to be an educated person. If your "foundation" is "rocked to the core" maybe you never had a core. Just sayin'
Have you ever helped an app out?
December 28, 2014 at 7:56 PM
No, I'm too busy living life outside my parents basement.
Take it easy on her. She probably gets her news from "The View" and will soon have you escorted to HR.
"...Don't worry too much about this, it's a baby boom generation vestige, like the left-right political tug of war. It dies of as they do. Not a millennial issue, who are more likely to be in racially mixed, non-traditional relationships than to be -ist..."
How amusing. A "millennial" claims they are beyond diversity issues, but elects to stereotype the beliefs of the entire set of "baby boomers". HaHa.
Quite. Millennials are so self aware, they can't realize their own hypocrisy. Voted for Obama overwhelmingly for his race and not his resume, which we've learned above doesn't matter.
Also, don't Millennials get trophies just for being born?
millennial guys voted for Obama because he handed out some free slim-fitting jeans popular with them.
So who trumps who in the diversity race: the protected "senior" category?, the protected "Disability" category?, the protected "race" category? the protected "veteran" category? the protected "gender" category? or the protected sexual identity" category? There are laws protecting each. Common sense must prevail.
Whoever decides to complain the loudest and shed the most tears.
"...So who trumps who in the diversity race..."
The protected "good old boys" trump all other mentioned diversity groups which you failed to identify. If one happens to be in the "good old boy" club AND an "underutilized" or strategically important minority, you are not just protected, you are untouchable, meaning workplace policies, practices, and conduct expectations have not and will not apply to you.
Are all you kidding... the new "good old girls" network is the most protected.
the "good old boys" network can at least be criticized openly.
The reason for its continuing success is mission focus by excellent people. Color, sex, orientation don't matter,
The millenial comment was written by me, a retired baby boomer.
My millenial kids scoff at and ignore the silly, now archaic issues that defined my very self-absorbed generation. Fortunately this dies with our passing each day.
Imagine an America where Pelosi and Boehner, Gore and Bush, Maher and O'Reilly, Nader and Trump have passed on. Good riddance.
Include Ridley Scott and
OPRAH in that list of welcomed passing. And Seth Rogan.
" The reason for its continuing success is mission focus by excellent people. Color, sex, orientation don't matter,
December 31, 2014 at 12:44 PM"
Success is defined by who makes the most money. Nothing more nothing less.
"Imagine an America where Pelosi and Boehner, Gore and Bush, Maher and O'Reilly, Nader and Trump have passed on. Good riddance.
December 31, 2014 at 12:53 PM"
They will be replaced, Kanye West, Taylor Swift, Twitter, facebook.
Not to bash Millennials they are indeed going to be happier people but they will and are going to be the first true Brave New World people.
Silly people. We don't live in isolation.
No way the Millennials can compete with the Chinese. Millennials have no grit.
Style over substance.
Millennials -"We have the best facebook pages and are led by lawyers... Go USA".
China -"We will manufacture and provide services for what you need and are led by highly technical folks. Go China"
Who do you think will win?
"...Diversity & Inclusion
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is an equal opportunity employer, with a commitment to workforce diversity..."
"...LLNL Nondiscrimination and Affirmative Action Policy Statement
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory is committed to a discrimination-free workplace and neither condones nor tolerates practices that discriminate against any person employed or seeking employment on the basis of race; color; religion; marital status; national origin; ancestry; sex (including breastfeeding or medical conditions related to breastfeeding); gender identity; pregnancy (including childbirth and medical conditions related to pregnancy and childbirth); sexual orientation; physical or mental disability; medical condition (cancer-related or genetic information) as defined in California Government Code Section 12926(h) or Title II of the Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act; military and veteran status; age; citizenship; or any other basis protected by law. This policy applies to all employment practices, including recruitment, selection, promotion, transfer, merit increase, salary, training and development, demotion, and separation. This policy is intended to be consistent with the provisions of applicable State and Federal laws and LLNL policies.
LLNL is an affirmative action/ equal employment opportunity employer. LLNL undertakes affirmative action, consistent with its obligations as a Federal contractor, to increase employment opportunities for minorities and women, for persons with disabilities, and qualified protected veterans.
More information regarding Equal Employment Opportunity is available from the Department of Labor.."
Then explain all the female biased promotion, and female biased replacements. It's clear the agenda of LLNL hiring and promotion policies are gender focused.
Your answer to female biased replacements and promotions:
"This policy is intended to be consistent with the provisions of applicable State and Federal laws and LLNL policies.
"... LLNL undertakes affirmative action, consistent with its obligations as a Federal contractor..."
"Consistent" means whatever agreement or understanding LANSLLNS has forged with State and Federal agencies. If there would appear to be excessive female promotions, LANSLLNS can reshuffle categories, titles, or PAD identifiers to ensure the utilization tables do not appear skewed.
Through a series of successful employer lawsuits, the authority of the agencies mentioned is near nonexistent, and they are not permitted to think or act outside the box for fear of additional legal defeats by employers.
If there would appear to be excessive female promotions, LANSLLNS can reshuffle categories, titles, or PAD identifiers to ensure the utilization
January 4, 2015 at 8:53 AM
A reshuffling to slow down female promotion would be seen as sexist in any scenario.
LLNL will eventually be half women in upper management to reflect the ratio in computer science and physics PhDs. That's sarcasm in case you missed it.
The lab is not about excellence anymore. No one can argue that. The lab is in cruise mode, where ever that may take us, and thus merit based promotion not essential, but just good enough is fine enough.
However I do enjoy watching those that have been pushed up without merit thinking they have earned it. I just want to say quit embarrassing yourself and the lab, but it's much too entertaining.
I would certainly not recommend LLNL to a true scientific star.
Oh, and by the way, the only female ADs not be run out of town, were the only ADs (male or female) without a PhD. Strange co-incidence.
The bar is gender reliant.
What we have here are disgruntled males who can't handle working with women, and certainly not having us as your bosses. We'll get used to it. I am woman and hear me roar.
This is all payback for the "good old boys" over the past several decades. It's now our turn to determine the next few decades, and not run it into the ground like you boys.
If you don't like it, leave so we can replace you with some talented women.
You go girl!
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