Oct 15 is coming. IsLANL going to really bring the hammer down on the anti-vexers? Also airline pilots, air traffic controllers, cops, first responders, and city work are starting to resit the mandates. I guess we need to fire them all. The only problem is that not that many people have been fired so far. We can do better, do you trust being in plane with a pilot who is so dumb they did not get a vaccine? How did these people even graduate college it is simply crazy. The only explanation is all the fake news and misinformation which shows that something must be done to stop misinformation. Social media, TV, books, radio shows and and even private conversations that promote misinformation need to stoped now. This is not censorship because censorship only applied to things that are true, this is about public safety. Do you really want a neighbor who is non-vaccinated or believes in misinformation, do you really want airline pilots who will not get a vaccine, do you want to give drivers licenses out to people who are so stupid they they will not get a vaccine. We need to make their worlds smaller, much smaller in order to protect us. Also it is not good enough to go after the non-vaccinated, if you are vaccinated but say you do not care about those that are not than you are just as guilty as the non-vaccinated and need to treated as such. Our patience with these people has run out, we had almost 2 years of this because people will not a vaccine, not mention all the other junk because of misinformation.
37 comments:
I have noticed a few people retiring the last few weeks. The all seem to be well into retirement age so maybe it means nothing. It seems like bit more than usual.
Im confused. Who are you protecting by firing someone?
The OP is the enemy within. He/She defines who is worthy or unworthy. While there are many good reasons to get vaccinated, there are also many good reasons not to. That is one reason it should remain a personal choice, not a federal “mandate”. If the feds want universal vaccinations, they should stop pretending and pass a LAW … and then suffer the backlash at the voting booth they have justly earned.
10/10/2021 10:56 AM
I guess it could a way to get rid of "problem" people. The question is are they going to have a consent policy or will the pick and choose who gets terminated.
Is everything black-and-white to everyone these days? No one is capable anymore of nuance and detail? Here's the deal. Unvaccinated people can transmit the disease to vaccinated people and therefore to their kids, who remain at risk. They also transmit the virus to other unvaccinated people in the workplace which could cause a mini-epidemic affecting many workers in a given organization, vastly affecting productivity. Vaccinated people can also contract and transmit the virus to both other vaccinated and unvaccinated people, but at vastly lower risk of high viral load. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can get sick from the virus, but unvaccinated are far more likely to be hospitalized or lose their lives. As long as this virus is endemic, maybe forever, the greatest efforts need to be taken to protect people and organizational effectiveness. Lots of people at LANL do rocket science. This isn't it. Get vaccinated to reduce the risk to everyone, especially to those who can't (yet) be vaccinated, and to your children.
"Is everything black-and-white to everyone these days? No one is capable anymore of nuance and detail?"
Judging from your own post apparently not.
" Unvaccinated people can transmit the disease to vaccinated people and therefore to their kids, who remain at risk"
Kids are at an extremely low risk if they get it. In fact some calculations show due potential heart issues kids may be safer getting Covid than the vaccine. Risk is pretty low in both case.
"They also transmit the virus to other unvaccinated people in the workplace which could cause a mini-epidemic affecting many workers in a given organization, vastly affecting productivity. Vaccinated people can also contract and transmit the virus to both other vaccinated and unvaccinated people, but at vastly lower risk of high viral load. "
There are plenty of studies show that vaccinated people can carry as much viral load as unvaccinated particularly with Delta. As you point out there are nuances to all of this. As for productivity loss maybe firing a large fraction of your unvaccinated workforce will lead lower productivity.
" Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can get sick from the virus, but unvaccinated are far more likely to be hospitalized or lose their lives. "
True in general but has to also be considered for the age for your work force. If for example you people under 50 the odds of anyone dying of Covid a rather low. In fact the average age of death of Covid is close to 80, how many 80yr olds do you have working?
"As long as this virus is endemic, maybe forever, the greatest efforts need to be taken to protect people and organizational effectiveness"
Forever? How is it that we could function with every other flu, polio, Malaria, and so on but Covid is now so special that we have to take the greatest effort to protect the people from a flue that is no where near as bad as the 1918 flu. Another possibility will be to just let this thing go try to do your best to protect the elderly and the most vulnerable. This latter approach could actually save more lives when you take into account all the issues that came with the lockdown.
"Lots of people at LANL do rocket science"
Actually very few people at LANL do rocket science, maybe Sandia but but not LANL. Not to mention that "rocket science" is actually more engineering than science at this point. Also in many ways epidemiology and economics implications or policy is probably harder than "rocket science" because you have way more variables and less controlled information on those variables. Rocket science is now fairly well understood, however modeling epidemics is very unpredictable not to mention that once you tie extra variables like economics cost, secondary death due to the actions you take and so on things just become much more complex and nuanced. You could even add in all the politics that came into play that took advantage of the pandemics which again adds to the complexity of the situation, never let a good crisis go to waste as they say. If you think the last part is just conspiracy than look no further than "build back better".
Note that I am not saying to not the vaccine, I think the risk is low from side effects but I am saying the response to this pandemic is much more nuances and detailed than people think and experts will tell you particularly behind closed doors that it is really hard to predict this. Also when people in the health fields make suggestions they often completely ignore additional variables that come into terms from economics or society.
"If the feds want universal vaccinations, they should stop pretending and pass a LAW … and then suffer the backlash at the voting booth they have justly earned.
10/10/2021 10:56 AM"
I have news for you, Congress doesn't need to pass laws anymore. They have long since delegated all of their constitutional authority to the executive branch and a myriad of regulatory agencies, such as OSHA, Labor Department, etc. The three branches of government are: regulatory, executive and judicial.
8:12 Brilliant. Thanks.
The state of New Mexico could pass a law or the governor could mandate the vaccination of all new mexico residents. Why dont they? Why are they laying this at the feet of employers if this is so important?
"Our patience with these people has run out, we had almost 2 years of this because people will not a vaccine, not mention all the other junk because of misinformation."
Joe Biden obtained his second dose on Jan 11, 2021 (after saying he wouldn't get a vaccine from the Trump administration). We're at October 2021, that's 10 months, not two years.
Remember both Biden and Harris said they would not get the vaccine (as though Trump was in the back room mixing it by hand) and once they got elected, that was no longer information at all.
We were told 2 weeks to flatten the curve. That was misinformation.
We were told that masks were not needed. That was misinformation. Or maybe not.
I suggest the original poster move to Australia where total lock down and the government over reach serve as a model that would better suit the OP's outlook and philosophy.
As someone who has taken the Moderna vaccine and suffered from some nasty side effects I would advise caution before jumping in. But I will NOT berate those who willing choose to do so, nor will I berate those who don't.
"Kids are at an extremely low risk if they get it. In fact some calculations show due potential heart issues kids may be safer getting Covid than the vaccine. Risk is pretty low in both case."
Are you referring to the now-retracted paper that associates myocarditis with the covid vaccine? Because the authors of that paper have retracted the paper. They rushed it to publications and severely miscounted the number of administered vaccines (paper originally cited 32,000 vaccines as opposed to 800,000 vaccines that had actually been given). This is the difference between a preprint paper and a published paper. And just because kids are at an extremely low risk doesn't preclude taking precautions to prevent the devastating death of a child. The death of kids are at an extremely low risk for all kinds of things, and yet we do everything possible to keep them safe. The risk of dying from covid is 2x the risk of dying from SIDS, and yet we still take every precaution to prevent sids from happening to kids. I never understand the -- well it'll only kill a couple of kids argument.
Also LANL and LLNL have a long history of exercising some level of control over their employee's medical decisions. You cannot take medical marijuana at the laboratory, even with a prescription. You cannot take certain prescribed painkillers. I know people on the tail end of chemo that have had to forgo painkillers to come to work. This shouldn't be a surprise at either of these places.
"Kids are at an extremely low risk if they get it. In fact some calculations show due potential heart issues kids may be safer getting Covid than the vaccine. Risk is pretty low in both case."
the rate of pericarditis and myocarditis in vaccinated people is 4 per 100,000 people. the rate of MIS-C in children that get covid is 322 per 100,000 people. And by the way the most common manifestation of MIS-C in children who have contracted covid is myocardial dysfunction (over 1/2 of kids get this) or acute respiratory failure (28-52%) or acute kidney injury (8-52%). So you are arguing that we should be more worried about heart inflammation that is 8 times less likely to occur than the heart dysfunction, respiratory failure or kidney injury. Please refrain from giving out false and inaccurate information regarding children. If you are going to disregard the threat to children, you should at least do some research to ensure that you aren't needlessly risking the lives of children and spreading misinformation that could potentially threaten their lives.
Why are they laying this at the feet of employers if this is so important?
10/11/2021 9:48 PM
Because federalism.
10/12/2021 4:46 PM
Dude, the research is ongoing even Pfizer is doing studies on this. Your are throwing these numbers out their like they are rock solid facts, anyone with any familiarity with scientific data particularly for a virus and vaccine that are less the 2 years knows there is no way they could have this kind of precision, and yes there are several studies out there showing different results pointing out one study, which I have never heard of by the way that was retracted, does not mean a whole lot when none of the numbers are really known all that well.
Even if a paper is published does not make it correct and many papers are only pointing out probabilities for something not certainties, which is true for most scientific papers by the way.
Saying anything is definitely false or inaccurate in terms of Covid or the vaccine is simply not certain, it is just probability at this point, scientific consensus on complex topics can take 10-20 years time. Your language is just over the top and not consistent with how science of epidemics or disease actually works. The data on kids has huge error bars, even the data on Adults has large error bars. Look they do not even have an accurate number of the death rate of Covid, the variations and so on, the numbers are all over the place and depend on lot on your estimates of how many just have gotten Covid but where never tested. For kids this number has to be extremely hard to estimate. For example kids are usually big vectors for most other diseases. Covid likely goes completely unnoticed in many kids so no one knows how many kids already had it and it could 2-10 times the number tested, that is why the 322 per 100k is close to to meaningless. Not to mention that is is possible for myocarditis from a vaccine to be more prevalent in the young than adults, but no one really knows for certain at this point.
You have to also understand that since the issues of kids and Covid produce pretty small numbers such the error is magnified.
" risking the lives of children and spreading misinformation that could potentially threaten their lives."
Oh please, the misinformation goes both ways you know. In any case I say let information flow and it is up to people to decide. In any case depending on you definition of low risk, the risk of Covid to kids is low by any reasonable definition.
10/12/2021 4:35 PM
I agree with what you are saying, my point is a vaccine mandate at LANL will actually have very little impact in-terms of people getting sick at LANL, the operations at LANL, or anything other than generating some lawsuits. If you are vaccinated already having a vaccinated person around you probably will not make all that much of a difference. Most people at LANL are vaccinated anyway way, the number of high risk groups like people over 70 or major health issues who are still working is even lower. Finley even if you do get sick the odds dying or having serous consequences are all that high, like 5% at max. Sure in the early stages of Covid 5% in 2020 is big, but now multiply that by factors that reduce this risk number of vaccinated, the number who got it and survived, you yourself being vaccinated, or having it already and you end of with a very small number.
In other words What are the odds that you as a vaccinated person will come to work at LANL and become severely sick from Covid carried by an unvaccinated co-worker? I know you LANL people can do some math, this is just multiplication.
There are still bets being placed that come Oct 15 no one gets fired but unpaid leave at most.
We shall see.
"There are still bets being placed that come Oct 15 no one gets fired but unpaid leave at most. We shall see"
Unpaid leave after 10(?) consecutive normal work days may result in medical and other worker benefit interruptions or temporary loss of coverage unless such benefits can be bridged out of pocket by the employee in a timely manner. Is this correct?
It is important to remember that Los Alamos is a nuclear weapons laboratory. For historical reasons, Los Alamos performs more high hazard operations than all other national laboratories combined. The public has the right to insist that employees of Los Alamos do not have the option to disobey safety rules that they may personally disagree with.
So are they really going to do and terminate people by the close of business today or are they going to blink.
COB October 15 is near, but no data on how many LWOPs were ordered.
10/15/2021 2:30 PM
All I keep hearing about is "leave without pay" I do not know a single person who is/was terminated.
It is important to remember that Los Alamos is a multi-disciplinary laboratory. For historical reasons, Los Alamos performs research in many different fields, some nuclear related. Applying the same stringent requirements for nuclear weapons production to all basic research results in substandard quality and little progress.
Just so you unvaccinated peple care or thing it is not dangerous General Colin Powel just died of Covid. This was a healthy military man in the latter prime of his life. What do you bet some unvaccinated person gave it to him? This thing is a killer that could get anyone at anytime and vaccinations, masking, and social distances are only weapons.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
It is important to remember that Los Alamos is a multi-disciplinary laboratory. For historical reasons, Los Alamos performs research in many different fields, some nuclear related. Applying the same stringent requirements for nuclear weapons production to all basic research results in substandard quality and little progress.
10/16/2021 6:54 PM
Powell....fully vaccinated! How's that workin out for you?
"Latter Prime of his life"????
He was 84 and had multiple myeloma.
You do know that the vaccination limits how hard it hits your body, it does not prevent you from getting it and passing it on. Or maybe you don't.
Triple mask and get your monthly booster.
But Colin Powell was vaccinated - if the vaccines do not protect you from dying of COVID-19, what is the purpose of them? I also saw the claim that him having cancer made the vaccines ineffective - once again, if their do not protect people with comorbidities, what do they do?
But Colin Powell was vaccinated - if the vaccines do not protect you from dying of COVID-19, what is the purpose of them? I also saw the claim that him having cancer made the vaccines ineffective - once again, if their do not protect people with comorbidities, what do they do?
10/18/2021 3:27 PM
I believe in science and listen to what the expert have to say. Unless you have 10 years of schooling in epdidemology or MD than you have nothing to offer. What I do not understand about you people is why do you even bother to try and think about this stuff, your are clearly not an expert so you are just adding noise. Before you get on airplane do you send out tweets to other passengers saying you have some doubts about how planes fly or pilot training. Even if you did it would be worthless. I really believe some kind of law needs to be made to (1) stop misinformation or (2) stop people from offering advice on things they know nothing about. In other words it should be illegal for you to do to your neighbor and tell him he should not get a cancer drugs, a lifesaving surgery, or should think twice and a medical procedure. I think it should be a federal crime to say you are against the vaccine or tell others that they should be against it.
Multiple myeloma severely affects the immune system with or without Covid. His treatment significantly depressed his immune response from the vaccine, and he was in his mid-80's. About 7000 people have died due to "breakthrough infections," out of hundreds of millions vaccinated.
10/18/2021 3:27 PM:
If you don't believe the vaccines "do" anything, stay unvaccinated. See you in the afterlife. You'll be there long before me.
10/13/2021 1:22 PM
10/13/2021 1:37 PM
10/18/2021 9:13 AM
10/18/2021 3:27 PM
Happy to hear that you won't be contributing to the traffic jam for flu shots this week.
5:31 you are certainly a good example of exactly the type of person your law should shield us from.
What's up with this "its not a vaccine because its not 100% effective" argument? No medical treatment has ever been 100% effective. That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Thankfully October 15 has come and gone and the injunction was denied and you are all fired, just as promised. We cant have such intelligence levels working here.
I think it comes from the measles and polio vaccines. Set too high a bar.
The lack of critical thought in this thread is impressive. The original poster couldn't even spell correctly. If this is human nature at it's finest, this country is doomed.
The lack of critical thought in this thread is impressive. The original poster couldn't even spell correctly. If this is human nature at it's finest, this country is doomed.
10/19/2021 6:32 PM
Ha. China just launched a hypersonic missile that circled the earth and are intelligence agencies have no idea how they did it. How did they do it, they embraced diversity and equity.
The point is that our country is doomed when we allow the capital to be stormed, when we allow Russia to interfere with our elections, when we allow misinformation to go unpunished, when we allow minorities to be sent to jail at much higher rates than average. When we jail people at the border and put children in cages and treat them like animals. This is not even our land, we stole it from other people. The United States as doomed from its inception as it was formed on the blood of stolen land. Yes we are doomed , we where always doomed, and it is just that we are doomed.
"I guess it could a way to get rid of "problem" people. The question is are they going to have a consent policy or will the pick and choose who gets terminated."
New Mexico just enacted a "Crisis Standard of Care for Hospitals" that are now at ~125% of capacity (hallways being used?) primarily due to the influx of unvaccinated COVID-19 patients.
You raise a reasonable question though. COVID-19 vaccinations are now a DOE requirement for contractor employees. Triad is openly implementing this requirement to its employees with clearly defined consequences for refusing to get the COVID-19 vaccine. If Triad had just stated to its employees, "we want you to get the COVID-19 vaccine by some date" with no stated consequences, and subsequently fired those employees that didn't get the vaccine, I'd say Triad was not working with its employees in good faith, but this does not appear to be the case. Triad openly made the COVID-19 vaccine a condition of employment for ALL EMPLOYEES. However, Triad's working with its employees in good faith goes out the window if they "pick and choose who gets terminated" under the guise of a COVID-19 vaccine mandate.
It is a telling insight into the culture of the wannabe pit factory on the hill that TRIAD incentivized vaccinations by giving away a pickup truck, rather than an eco-friendly EV.
10/28/2021 4:55 AM
It's only "eco-friendly" if you ignore the carbon footprint required to mine the ore for, and to manufacture, its batteries.
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