Hi Scooby-
Just heard today that LANL is requiring 100% COVID vaccination, with case by case exceptions for medical exceptions.Is this something you've gotten info. on?
Thanks
Scooby's reply:
I am no more informed on LANL than you are but I am certain someone from there will chime in.
63 comments:
https://ladailypost.com/triad-to-require-entire-workforce-at-los-alamos-national-laboratory-and-all-contractors-to-be-vaccinated-against-covid-19/
This was announced Monday. 85 already got the jab, just need the 15%. The big question is are boosters going to also be mandated.
Yep. As we fight for freedom, our rights are erased in front of our eyes.
You have no right to opt out of public health requirements. It is your responsibility as a citizen.
"It is your responsibility as a citizen."
Exactly, and we need to take harsh consequences to those to the do not comply. Well at least some groups.
"You have no right to opt out of public health requirements. It is your responsibility as a citizen."
What public health requirement?
LANL has no jurisdiction over the public. Biden can only make orders affecting the executive branch. There is no requirement for the general public.
6:21 welcome to the new abnormal where just about anyone can make a “mandate” and use various sorts of threats, coercion, mob rule and the like to make it stick. Tom Mason is a perfect example. He has no authority to make this edict and no authority or expertise in my personal health matters.
Tom Mason is a perfect example. He has no authority to make this edict and no authority or expertise in my personal health matters.
8/27/2021 9:33 AM
If Thom Mason signs your paychecks, then you better do what he tells you to. Of course you always have the freedom to go look for another job. Good luck with that!
85% of LANL is vaccinated. Almost all the scientific and technical workforce is vaccinated like 95+ is my guess. If you want the rest vaccinated you will have to go to those communities and convince them. This is the same issue that is occurring throughout the United States. The local paper is just has comments of "how come all these scientists are so stupid and will not get a vaccine". This is not going to help the issue since it is not even the issue. If you really want to fix this problem you have accurate information about the numbers. Saying "we are going to fire all these bad scientists is great!!" is wrong, irrelevant and will not help.
What public health requirement?
8/27/2021 6:21 AM
What, you missed that there's a worldwide pandemic killing millions?
Good. Hope LLNL and SNL follow suit.
Good. Hope LLNL and SNL follow suit.
8/27/2021 6:43 PM
Why, Delta is going to dip very soon, and most people at LLNL and SNL are vaccinated anyway. Mandating a vaccine at the NNSA labs is going to amount to hill of beans in terms of actual impact. If you are going to do a mandate you need to do it in communities that have low vaccinations rates if you really want results. I get that it looks good politically but will do very little and might be more trouble than it is worth. I am not sure LANL leadership really thought this one through. In any case my prediction is that LLNL and SNL will not do any mandates. I also predict that LANL is going to back away from this before Oct 15th. I suspect that they are going run into some issues that they did not think through. We shall see.
What, you missed that there's a worldwide pandemic killing millions?
Also to the poster
"What, you missed that there's a worldwide pandemic killing millions?
8/27/2021 6:02 PM"
Indeed Covid has killed 4.6 million that 4.6x10^6 with average age of death around 82. The population of the earth is 7.5 billion that is close to 10^10, with median age of 29 and average lifespan of 79 years. As for pandemics this is not one for the record books if you know anything about history. Again it makes one wonder if maybe we could have approached this whole thing a bit different and actually saves more lives, but who knows.
"What, you missed that there's a worldwide pandemic killing millions?”
sure, got that. I'm vaccinated.
But you have not answered the question:
Where is the legal authority for the general public to be vaccinated?
Rule of law. Or else autocracy. Which is it
"Of course you always have the freedom to go look for another job. Good luck with that!
8/27/2021 3:35 PM"
Bitcoin and S&P have done well enough that I am plenty good so I do not have deal with this nonsense if it comes to this. Sadly the people that mostly likely will have to go along with this are young people who will wish to keep their jobs yet statistically are at the lowest risk. Just looking at the numbers it is kind of clear that so much of this hysteria, lockdowns and mandates are not really about health and safety.
Rule of law. Or else autocracy. Which is it
8/27/2021 9:37 PM
Autocracy. But a good form of autocracy ruled by adults in the room.
8/28/2021 1:05 AM
If they let you post from the ICU when you are intubated, let us know what you think then.
If they let you post from the ICU when you are intubated, let us know what you think then.
8/28/2021 5:36 PM
You have a fair point but statics are not on your side. The odds of a 32 year old dying on from Covid while intubated are rather low...very low. However the odds dying at over 83 from anything Covid or not is like 15%. People like you do not understand statistics, sure there are a few people under 40 that die of Covid. Not to give away my location but how many people each year in Archuleta County from who are under 40 die each year from falling off mountains or drowning in rivers, that the number is not that different from the number dying of Covid. The media will hype up individual cases while ignoring bulk numbers. You do you, but math is not on your side.
"Autocracy. But a good form of autocracy ruled by adults in the room."
Thank you for sharing that piece of information. Of course "good" is always in the eye of the beholder. History tells us where that leads. I can only hope you didnt take many history classes, and that your words are based on youthful ignorance.
If they let you post from the ICU when you are intubated, let us know what you think then.
8/28/2021 5:36 PM
It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Life is bounded by death and that you only have so much time, once you realize this and that quality of life means something than you will wake up!
8:24, 9:36, 1:23. I salute you. It is my fervent hope that Americans such as you continue to stand up to tyrants.
1:23…I’ve changed my mind, you are the omnipresent, “then/than” guy.
8/29/2021 1:23 AM
Not on your feet. On your back in an ICU with a tube down your throat. If you think that's better than a needle in your arm, more power to you.
Not on your feet. On your back in an ICU with a tube down your throat. If you think that's better than a needle in your arm, more power to you.
8/29/2021 5:49 PM
And just what are the odds of that if you healthy and under 50?
1:23…I’ve changed my mind, you are the omnipresent, “then/than” guy.
8/29/2021 3:20 PM
And you are the omnipresent "LANL hater" guy.
So from what I know after Oct 15th at LANL if you do not have the vaccine you are referred to line management to discuss your employment. What are the odds that the line management is going go anywhere near this stuff? It sounds like a weird way to take responsibility off TRIAD and put the onus on lower level managers. Again I doubt line management is going to want to be involved in this. More likely a "plan" will be made to deal with these people rather than terminated their employment. There is already lots of worried talk by some people about what they are going to do with unvaccinated. So far LLNL and Sandia are not touching this.
Actually, I don't think they are leaving it up to line management. Line management is just supposed to process the request for medical or religious exemption. The way I read it, unless you have a completed card on file or you get an exemption, HR is going to automatically terminate you on the 15th of October.
The labs all have to manage relationships with unions, which include exhaustive contracts. I suspect this will be the sticking point in their vaccine policy.
Regarding "you are referred to line management", you will be talking to HR Employee/Labor Relations. They don't care if you work for the Lab or not.
So from what I know after Oct 15th at LANL if you do not have the vaccine you are referred to line management to discuss your employment. What are the odds that the line management is going go anywhere near this stuff?
8/30/2021 6:40 AM
It doesn't matter what the line managers think or believe since they all represent TRIAD and serve at TRIAD's pleasure. The lower level managers will comply with their orders, or be terminated themselves and a compliant manager brought in to replace them. Obviously current line managers could also choose to "return to science" before October, but there's always somebody out there who likes the paycheck and will follow orders without question.
https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/los-alamos-national-laboratory-requires-all-employees-get-vaccinated/article_855e1b9a-04ec-11ec-8500-87b308552f1f.html
"Managers will decide whether those who don't comply should keep their jobs, the lab said in a news release. "
In other words nothing is going to happen, no manager in his right mind will do this. I simply do not see it happening particularly when look at the demographics of vaccine hesitant groups. The lab is going to open itself up to huge law suits on discrimination grounds and LANL generally loses these cases. Maybe that is the labs plan, who knows, but someone did not think this though.
It doesn't matter what the line managers think or believe since they all represent TRIAD and serve at TRIAD's pleasure. The lower level managers will comply with their orders, or be terminated themselves and a compliant manager brought in to replace them. Obviously current line managers could also choose to "return to science" before October, but there's always somebody out there who likes the paycheck and will follow orders without question.
8/30/2021 9:54 AM
I really doubt it. I think TRIAD already figured that this is a bad idea and have no real idea how to even do it. They probably just hope they will get as many people to go along with and then drop it. Mid and lower level managers will have to make the calculation if it is a good idea to go along with this and be good with TRIAD or risk being caught up in the lawsuits. Anyone who has been around the lab long enough knows the lab lawyers have messed up a ton of times. I simply do not see the managers going through with this. Maybe we could be getting a large number religious converts or something so everything will turn out good.
Hey just to hedge my bets if you do end getting fired, saying "well I read on a blog that this probably would not happen" is not going to fly as a defense.
I noticed the Santa Fe paper and LANL daily post that keep getting these pro-vaccine posts from some this one LANL guy, some of his twitter stuff is just beyond vile. If you want to get more people to get a vaccine you should provide some numbers, risk analysis, and so on, but just insulting people or saying you are glad that some of them have died is just creepy and will not help. I would think someone from LANL could do better, and I am a bit embarrassed that that we have people like this. Just from looking at the persons record I am guessing math or statistics may not be this persons strong point.
8/30/2021 8:12 PM
Someone who works at LANL should be able to do his own research and conclude that the vaccines are safe and effective, with 100's of millions of doses delivered safely. Vaccine resistance has unfortunately become a religious thing for many right-wingers. Their world is about to become much smaller. They won't like it.
TOTALLY!
"Someone who works at LANL should be able to do his own research and conclude that the vaccines are safe and effective, with 100's of millions of doses delivered safely. "
The problem is lots of people have done their own research and the math does not really add up when you take the amount of risk, pre-existing conditions, age, the fact that the vaccines simply have not been tested for long term effects. There is also other factors like will the governments really be willing to give up their power once they have it. The is also the question if the whole approach to the lockdowns versus protecting the vulnerable was actually worth in terms of life and economics. As I said I have considered all the factors and I think the vaccines are the best thing to do, particularly if you if you are in a vulnerable group or will be close contract with someone who is. That being said I am no going call someone an idiot who questions just how effective they are and just how many lives they really are going to save at this point. I am am especially not got call someone an idiot who questions the whole approach to how we handled it. By the way there is some calculations done that seem pretty solid to me that if you are healthy and under 30 the odds of the vaccine doing real harm or even death is higher than actual Covid, these calculctions make some assumptions but these assumptions seem reasonable. You of course need to take into account that even you are under 30 you could spread it to older people. There are also people claiming that if we all vaccinate we will get rid which is nonsense. There is also possibility that mass vaccinations could actually lead to mutants that that resists the vaccines. No one really knows that the odds of this happing versus just letting it spread and if that could produce more mutants. It may surprise you but epidemics modelers do not really understand many of these things and their models are limited by definition.
People often say just listen to the medical personal, however the problem is they could be considering only one aspect of this which is "what saves the most lives in the immediate or near future". They do not consider other costs such as economics, world stability, resources or even long term health consequences. This is point missed time and time again. The real leaders need to take into account all the variables.
Scooby will not probably not let this be posted, but what I find so odd is all these people who say, you should not question and listen to the "science" as though all these scientists are in agreement and have exact predicability in such complex system. Science is not exact by nature, and consensus can take generations to actually form. This pandemic like many other things falls into a class of something called a complex system which notoriously hard to make predictions on. If you happen to know anybody in these fields they are pretty honest about it, but somehow the public gets a very different idea.
The 5:23 PM poster wants people to do their own research but appears not to have done it themselves.
"Vaccine resistance has unfortunately become a religious thing for many right-wingers. Their world is about to become much smaller. They won't like it."
Again this is incorrect, if you look at those who has not taken the vaccine less than 50% of those are republicans. The idea that right wingers are all of the anti-vaxxers simply does not hold up. If you look at the ages of eligible people who have not taken the vaccine the largest segment are simply young people who see little threat to themselves or people who simply do not care. The fraction of people who are people that are eligible and in a risky group that are not taking it because they are right winge ideology is probably pretty small. Sure the MSM shows these people all the time, and they are rather vocal on social media but ask yourself how many people do you know that really fall into that category? As for making the world world smaller for the unvaccinated it may not be all the effective because again if you look at the people not getting the vaccine their world is not all the big anyway. Having to show proof to get on a plane, or go to high end restaurant effects mostly people who are getting the vaccine anyway.
Take California for example 56.7% of the state is vaccinated. Only 24% of Californias are registered Republicationshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_locations_by_voter_registration
Of those Republicans suppose 2/3 of them where anti-vaxers that would mean 18% of the non-vaccinated are Republican and and 25.3 are non-Republicans. So the idea that it is far right anti-vaxxers driving this is wrong.
So the next question is "making the world smaller" for Anti-Vaxers the best idea and could it even work? As I said how big is their world. Again let us look at California, no one knows how many homeless there are but they have one of the lowest vaccination rates, how would "making their world smaller" help? African Americans also have a low rate of 40%, they also have a younger demographic, how will "making their world smaller" help? The next group after that it is Hispanic. There is also the question of undocumented migrants who are unvaccinated how is "making the world" smaller for a group that is already trying not to be noticed going help?
It is entirely possible that any of these "make the world" smaller approaches could actually make thing worse as you could creat more economic upheaval in vulnerable communities, families that may be forced out of work would have move in with relatives creating reduced social distancing. I know it sounds good to say "crazy religious dumb, right wingers should be forced to live a world they do not like", but they are not really the problem and all this will do nothing to help.
"Someone who works at LANL should be able to do his own research"
I guess you are saying everyone who works at LANL is a scientist or are you saying it is only the scientists at LANL that are not vaccinated? Only 17% of people at LANL have PhD, and large fractions have only a high school degree. I am sure anyone of any eduction level can do their own research. I just am not sure what your point is.
"They won't like it."
Or maybe they would. I was rooting for an asteroid in a relatively recent election.
Just an observation but I have noticed all those people who are very vocal and keep saying "anyone who questions anything about COVID is not smart enough to work at LANL!" are, how should I say this nicely, not exactly among the best of the brightest. Admittedly one should be careful about limited data set but so far it is has been a 1:1 correlation.
Some of these people should be careful about making such public comments because it probably works in reverse to what they are hoping. Having someone who is not exactly considered the smartest person, just giving insults, is not going to inspire a lot of people. I know that twitter or Facebook is not long enough to give real information, but is long enough just to insult people so maybe that is all it can really be sued for. I have to ask what are these people really trying to accomplish, but I doubt they have even thought about that.
Again I urge people to give numbers, arguments and facts when making your point to encourage people to a vaccine or the booster when it comes to that . Saying they are dumb right wingers, evil, or should not be employed will not help.
I worked at LLNL. Even the most trivial things were formalized and treated as a scientific matter in meeting, after meeting, after meeting. Spend a dollar to save a penny!
Stop asking for stats and numbers for everything! This is a blog your voicing your opinion, to vent to let it out hang out!
I don't understand why these unintelligent anti-vax people are so worried about side effects from a widely deployed and tested vaccine, but not about the side effects of COVID. Last I checked, COVID has many short and long term side effects, including death. Why would you prefer to take your chances with some Chinese lab experiment that leaked out?
Although the lab says it will have a vaccine mandate there is simply no way they can pull it off, so it is not any kind of real mandate. No one is gong to be fired because of this, so take it easy. If you look at all those other places that have mandates or say they will have mandates the same thing is going to happen which is mostly nothing.
Even in NYC where they say you have to show proof of a vaccine to go to a restaurant, that is only true in parts of Manhattan namely the wealthy parts , in every other place no one cares nor will it be enforced. Of course you will never hear about this because no NYT reporter would ever be caught dead in the Bronx or Queens, they have not mingled with the unwashed masses for 20 years.
In other words no ones world is going to be singled out to be shrinking anytime soon.
9/01/2021 5:33 PM
Don't be so sure you know what's going to happen. Just as schools are opening in the midst of serious differences about vaccination and masking, the M (or µ if you prefer) variant is in 39 countries and shows signs of some vaccine resistance, as well as resistance to the "natural" immunity carried by people who have had Covid.
To 8/27/2021 9:37 PM:
The mandate does not affect the general public. It affects lab employees who want to continue their employment. Entirely their choice.
Triad has a responsibility to try to ensure a safe workplace and mission continuity in the face of a clear and present danger posed by the virus (or anything else, for that matter).
"The mandate does not affect the general public. It affects lab employees who want to continue their employment. Entirely their choice. "
No going to happen, no one is going to be terminated.
My health is not TRIAD’s responsibility. The “clear and present danger” has resulted in exactly one death among TRIAD employees out of roughly 15,000 person years. In short the danger is clearly exaggerated by people like 5:57.
My health is not TRIAD’s responsibility. The “clear and present danger” has resulted in exactly one death among TRIAD employees out of roughly 15,000 person years. In short the danger is clearly exaggerated by people like 5:57.
9/03/2021 1:20 PM
The person that died had preexisting conditions. In fact they post the numbers of deaths in New Mexico everyday on the local online paper. It looks like 90% of the deaths say pre-existing conditions. Now New Mexico is not the most healthy state but I wondered if that number holds up in general and I found some stuff online that said 94% of the people had some kind of pre-existing condition. Again if you look at the numbers so much of how we approached this whole thing simply made no sense.
"98% had pre-existing conditions" is an exaggeration. In CA, we are far less sick than people in NM.
Maybe you are unvaccinated, because you believe you have a right to be so, or packing a concealed handgun, because you believe you have a right to do that. In either case, I believe that you are a threat to my right to life, and I want you to go away. Far away. Mandates and laws are on my side.
"Mandates and laws are on my side."
Only while at work. At home, I've still got my legal firearms. And those neighbors who dont work for a lab dont care about employer mandates.
"98% had pre-existing conditions" is an exaggeration"
I have never found anything that said 98%, but I did find that 94% is the argued upon number for deaths of Covid with pre-existing conditions or comorbitities.
https://www.wtvm.com/2020/08/31/cdc-covid-deaths-had-underlying-health-conditions/
There was also this bizarre claim from reuters fact check.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-94-percent-covid-among-caus/fact-check-94-of-individuals-with-additional-causes-of-death-still-had-covid-19-idUSKBN25U2IO
They claim that people where saying only 6% of people died of Covid and 94% died of something else. The "fact check" is that 94% died but had other comorbitities. This is completely consistent with the 94% that I was saying. The bizarre claim is that someone actually said that only 6% died of Covid, I have never ever heard anyone say such thing. This like the Snopes fact check, where the MSM says "everyone believes this and we are here to fact check that" When in fact almost no one ever believed such a thing.
Oddly enough the do not do fact checks for all the fake news the ivermectin which the MSM claim is a horse de-wormer, when it in fact has been used by billions of people for the treatment of Malaria and is currently being used in Japan and India for the treatment of Covid. Try looking 2015 Nobel prize in medicine.
Yes - Anonymous 7:30 - you are on the right side
https://twitter.com/DrSuneilJain/status/1434252068315963393/photo/1
"Only while at work. At home, I've still got my legal firearms. And those neighbors who dont work for a lab dont care about employer mandates.
9/04/2021 8:58 AM"
You'r "legal firearms" are only legal for the moment. It is only a matter of time before the US becomes and more enlightened like Australia and we outlaw these dam guns. The US gun death rate is blight on the US. You and your imagined idea of toxic masculinely are a poison on this land. I am 7:30AM I want all you people to go away, far away from civilized people who believe in science, have compassion and reason. I really hope someone like 8:58 AM does not work at the lab and if they do I want them fired. I do not want them going the same supermarket as me, I do not want them going to the same stores I go to , I do want them going to the same parks I do, I do want them using the internet to spread false information to influence the young people, I do not want them having having any say in way of life. I do not want them storming the capital, I am afraid of these people and you should be also.
Anyone who uses the phrase "fake news" is advertising that they are ignorant Trump sycophants.
9/04/2021 5:43 PM
You said "I do" twice when you meant "I do not." Take a deep breath, put down the bottle, and reconsider your fear. It is childish and immature. Grow up. Adults do not fret about total strangers endangering them, unless they live where it is literally true. Then they move.
Anyone who uses the phrase "fake news" is advertising that they are ignorant Trump sycophants.
9/04/2021 5:50 PM
The term fake news is used all the time on the left, are they all ignorant Trump sycophants? Do you want me to put out post after post after post or link after link after link showing extreme left wingers using that term. In fact "fake news" was coined originally by the left.
I have seen you post before saying things that are just completely wrong lie "cancel culture" is something invented from the right. The term cancel used to shut down speaker was stated by the far left in 2014. Again I gave you links and even photos. You know it takes effort to gather this information. You said something like the the raise of violence against Asians was due to white supremecy, I gave you al the links and plots showing that this was not the case and un-Asian violence against Asians is predombtly black on Asians, and there has been no increase in white on Asian.
By the way I am no a Trump sycophant by any stretch of the imagination but I am avid student of news media and journalism and have been for over 35 years. The current media news media is nothing like it was in 70s, 80s, or even 90s, they do abide by the underlying tenets of journalism. I know you guys claim Fox News is fake news all the time but how on earth at the very same instance can you say that CNN, NPR, MSNBC, NYT, PBS, NBC and so on are more accurate that Fox? It is simply not true.
Take the latest, Rachel Madow just did a segment on how ivermectin is a horse de-wormer and a bunch of dumb idiots are taking it and getting hospitalized. Ivermectin has been used by a billion people or more over 40 years for treatment in humans. The 2015 Nobel prize in medicine was given for this drug. As for all those people getting hospitalized it appears to be one person. Ivermectin is very safe and you would have take a massive amount to maybe get some issues. She either does not know this which is a sign of bad journalism or she is simply lying. This is just one instance it just goes on and on.
"I am afraid of these people and you should be also."
Fear is a condition that is managed, as 5:55pm points out. But since 5:43pm evidently lacks courage, for that person only anger and helplessness remain, resulting an in overwhelming need to control, perhaps even subjugate. And that is why guns are still needed.
"Grow up. Adults do not fret about total strangers endangering them, unless they live where it is literally true."
If you do not have a vaccine, do not wear a mask, do not social distance than you literally are a danger to the me and the community. Due to mandates this is changing. Adults use their brains rather than listen to social media drivel by conspiracy theories.
Ok, maybe this is not the high level intellectual conversation Scooby craves so much on the blog but this specific thread is on Covid and vaccines so it fits. To follow up with the 6:30PM story. I read a story that has been picked up by a number of news media yesterday and has been making the rounds on facebook and twitter. This is the one that hospitals are being so overrun with people getting sick from taking the horse dewormer medicine, ivermectin, that people are being turned away.
Here is a link the story:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/04/oklahoma-doctor-ivermectin-covid-coronavirus
"An Oklahoma doctor has said overdoses of the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin, which many believe without evidence can prevent or cure Covid-19, are helping cause delays and problems for rural hospitals and ambulance services struggling to cope with the resurgent pandemic."
Well guess what the story is total nonsense.
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/rolling-stone-horse-dewormer-hit-piece-debunked-after-hospital-says-no-ivermectin
l McElyea worked for, NHS Sequoyah, located in Sallisaw, Oklahoma - just issued a statement disavowing McElyea's claims, which pops up when you visit their website.
It reads:
Although Dr. Jason McElyea is not an employee of NHS Sequoyah, he is affiliated with a medical staffing group that provides coverage for our emergency room.
With that said, Dr. McElyea has not worked at our Sallisaw location in over 2 months.
NHS Sequoyah has not treated any patients due to complications related to taking ivermectin. This includes not treating any patients for ivermectin overdose.
All patients who have visited our emergency room have received medical attention as appropriate. Our hospital has not had to turn away any patients seeking emergency care.
We want to reassure our community that our staff is working hard to provide quality healthcare to all patients. We appreciate the opportunity to clarify this issue and as always, we value our community’s support.
I guess you will never hear the retraction story on this. I figured it wold be good for you guys to know the next time your facebook friends forwards you this story to show how
9/03/2021 1:20 PM
Actually, it IS TRIAD's responsibility to provide a safe and healthy environment for its workforce while on LANL property.
It's all moot now. All federal and federal contractor employees must be vaccinated with no option for testing, as of Biden's announcement today (9/9).
Excellent. So our "booster" will be in the form of asymptomatic breakthrough cases. No need for a third shot.
It's all moot now. All federal and federal contractor employees must be vaccinated with no option for testing, as of Biden's announcement today (9/9).
9/09/2021 5:30 PM
How come 600k USPS workers are exempt?
How come 600k USPS workers are exempt?
9/09/2021 11:54 PM
Who cares? You jealous?
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