https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11548419/J-Robert-Oppenheimer-father-atomic-bomb-black-mark-government-nullified.html
Architect of the American atomic bomb J. Robert Oppenheimer is finally CLEARED - 68 years after losing his security clearance amid accusations he was a communist: Cillian Murphy to play the genius in new biopic.I guess Teller was wrong.
35 comments:
Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm said in a written order that the since-dissolved Atomic Energy Committee acted out of political motives.
Yes Teller was wrong, that is why after the Opheheimer debacle Teller become one of the most hated men in science. I was undergraduate at a UC who had a prof from the Manhattan project who would latter win the Nobel. Ed Teller came to give a talk the physics department refused to host it the distinguished professor just went on a rant about how Teller was a total scoundrel in relation to what happened to Oppenheimer and that he claimed to be falsely be the father of hydrogen bomb when in fact the real credit belongs to others, he said he personally made sure Teller was not allowed to speak the physics department. Teller ended up giving a talk to political science department. That should give you an idea of what the physics faculty think of the guy. I have heard similar stories from several other scientists from the Manhattan project or that knew Teller. Heck even the Hungarians do not want to be associated with him.
From what I can tell the only two places you can find people saying good things about Teller are a subset of people at LLNL and people who appear on Coast to Coast and conspiracy shows talking about Teller and UFO's, perhaps they are the same people. I also forget there is subset of Aryn Rand cult fanatics that seem to like Teller as well. Strange stuff.
In essence Teller was wrong but this was not news in fact it was well known since the 60s to be the case. I think it is nice to officially clear Opies name but no one ever believed the accusations to begin.
Is this a big deal? No but it is a interesting little deal. I think Oppenheimer already has a great reputation and respect and Teller has the opposite.
I don’t think Teller ever called him a communist or accused him of anything. Maybe just implied.
I don’t think Teller ever called him a communist or accused him of anything. Maybe just implied.
12/17/2022 1:12 PM
Teller testified against Oppenheimer, saying, "I would prefer to see the vital interests of this country in hands that I understand better and therefore trust more." Many in the scientific community felt this was an unforgivable betrayal and ostracized Teller for life.
As it happened however, his words were seen as a great betrayal by the majority of physicists who supported Oppenheimer. The result of this perception was that Teller himself was damaged far more by his testimony than was Oppenheimer. Close friends simply stopped talking to him and one former colleague publicly refused to shake his hand, a defiant display that led Teller to retire to his room and weep. He was essentially declared a pariah by a large part of the wartime physics community.
But the key point here is that Teller had again let personal feelings interfere with objective decision making; Teller's animosity toward Oppenheimer went back years, and he knew that as long as the emperor ruled he could never take his place. This was his chance to stage a coup. As it happened his decision simply led to a great tragedy of his life.
The point is the restortion of the honor of Oppenheimer is just the final proof that Teller was utterly wrong.
Teller will go down in history as just another villain who betrayed others for his own advancement. He will belong with Brutus, Cassius, Benedict Arnold, and Judas. As for lans only Nanos is similar however Teller at least did some real science unlike Nanos who had literally no scientific contributions. Nanos is more like Custard.
Teller was right about a great many things, and wrong about some others. Oppenheimer built his own cross.
Nanos is more like Custard.
12/18/2022 9:10 AM
I disagree, Nanos was more like Flan or Crème Brûlée.
12/18/2022 9:10 AM
Most of your post is historically and factually correct, but your last paragraph is just stupid opinion.
" but your last paragraph is just stupid opinion.
12/18/2022 5:53 PM"
Teller is considered a villain that is not really an opinion.
Just out of curiosity why do consider these points "opinions". An opinion is like pistachio ice cream is better than chocolate chip. Stars Wars is better than Star Trek, blue is better than better than green. In opinion is simply a preference for something for lack of any facts or because there is enough information to make accurate assessment. In the case of Teller we know for a fact what he did to Oppenheimer and what other scientists thought of Teller. Now with the latest news about Oppenheimer being cleared it now beyond merely "opinion" of the assessment of Teller. That being said Teller was extremely intelligent and had multiple major scientific works.
He was a villain in the same style as many historical villains we know of who betrayed their own friends all in an attempt to advance themselves. This is a common theme in history and why we remember their names so well. Teller is considered in the class of people who are know as traitors or betrayers. I you have any familiarity Dante you will know exactly which level of hell these people get placed in. Also wait for the new Oppenheimer movie coming out to see who is the villain in the story.
As for Nanos do we really need to go through that? Nanos has almost no scientific record to speak of, this is a fact and and be easily checked. He has something like one paper of little note and few citations. He had a mediocre military career. He was universally hated at LANL and got fired after it was found out that he was wrong about the so called files which where never lost. He was undone by his own arrogance and stupidity. There are plenty of the people in history like this French Emperor Napoleon III, and George Custer.
"Oppenheimer built his own cross."
I bit of an odd thing to say since Oppenheimer was Jewish.
Funny seeing all this Teller hatred. He’s the the father of LLNL and the modern nuclear bomb. Used to see him come into the lab every week with his cane. Went to one of his last seminars. Had colleagues who were hired and worked with him. Nothing but respect and admiration. On the other hand, I had a colleague who had Oppenheimer as a professor and described him as bizarre and a terrible teacher. Used to write down an equation and stare at it for minutes like a work of art. There’s a great YouTube video where Freeman Dyson describes what a disaster Oppenheimer was for Princeton. Also, the world didn’t lose much without Oppenheimer in charge of the US weapons program after the war and he had a scientific career to go back to.
12/18/2022 9:32 PM
Your opinion of Teller and that of others are just opinions. Lots of opinions don't add up to a fact.
I didn't bring up Nanos, but you did. Why? Some psychological obsession, I guess. Try to get help for it, it was a long time ago.
"Funny seeing all this Teller hatred. He’s the the father of LLNL and the modern nuclear bomb"
False on both counts. This well documented and very easy check.
"On the other hand, I had a colleague who had Oppenheimer as a professor and described him as bizarre and a terrible teacher. Used to write down an equation and stare at it for minutes like a work of art. "
Odd a colleague told me the exact opposite.
"Also, the world didn’t lose much without Oppenheimer in charge of the US weapons program after the war "
The issue is there would not be a US weapons program without Oppenheimer.
I am always astounded by the utter lack of knowledge of history on this blog.
"Your opinion of Teller and that of others are just opinions. Lots of opinions don't add up to a fact."
I think you are very confused about what an opinion is, a fact and what a probabilistic assessment is. In science one gets evidence and come to an a reasonable assessment of what is true or highly likely of being true or being partially true. From what I think you are saying that unless something is absolutely certain it is just mere opinion. That not how science or even intellectual inquiry work. In your view the theory of evolution is mere opinion, continental drift is opinion, global warming is an opinion because we cannot prove these to be real. What we do have is evidence and strong evidence that these are true or facts. It not simply and opinion, like football is bette than futbal, there is evidence to back these claims up.
In the case of Teller we know what he said about Oppenheimer, we know what that did to him, we know what other scientists felt about Teller. We also know who invented the H-bomb and their different roles. These are facts not opinions.
As for Teller being compared to the great villains of history, you could argue that this is more speculative however given the facts that we know and the similarities between Teller and now past people how have betrayed others it is not a mere opinion but a astute and likely accurate picture of Teller. It is certainly true that that is general felling of most people who know the history of the Manhattan project and Oppenheimer. There is a new movie coming out on Oppenheimer painting him as a hero, Teller of course will be portrayed as villain.
"Funny seeing all this Teller hatred. He’s the the father of LLNL"
That would be Lawrence not Teller.
From the Oppenheimer book
"Edward Teller and FBI director J. Edgar Hoover worked behind the scenes to have a hearing board find that Oppenheimer could not be trusted with America's nuclear secrets.
"American Prometheus sets forth Oppenheimer's life and times in revealing and unprecedented detail. "
It is interesting that Teller is also associated with another infamous American villain J. Edgar Hoover.
Hoover even has entry on "Real life villains"
On multiple occasions he had abused his power. There are reports of him blackmailing politicians, unfairly (and sometimes illegally) persecuting political dissidents (most famously Martin Luther King Jr). He was a well-known racist and implemented the creation of COINTELPRO.
Other cases include allegedly framing Ma Barker as a crime boss, to cover up her being killed in the crossfire of a shootout with the Barker Gang. He had also ruined the careers and reputations of several other agents, such as Melvin Purvis, all so that he could claim the credit for their work for himself. There were also other rumors of he himself being blackmailed by the mob.
Some conspiracy theorists speculated that he was involved in the Assassination of John F. Kennedy or helped cover up the trail of the real killers and have Lee Harvey Oswald be the fall guy for the assassination. However, there is little, if any, hard evidence to back up these theories. It is known, though, that after Kennedy was shot, Hoover called the President's brother Robert F. Kennedy. The two men had a long-standing enmity. Hoover said: "The President's been shot." Before RFK could ask any questions, Hoover put the phone down. There was no element of empathy. RFK later said Hoover had enjoyed telling him.
He also denied the existence of organized crime during the 1930's, despite the fact that the American Mafia was arguably at the height of their power.
History has not been kind to Teller or Hoover, however as time goes on Oppenheimer is looking better and and better.
"Also, the world didn’t lose much without Oppenheimer in charge of the US weapons program after the war "
The issue is there would not be a US weapons program without Oppenheimer.
I am always astounded by the utter lack of knowledge of history on this blog.
12/19/2022 10:36 PM
Hey, I said “after” the war. I’m astonished by the utter lack of comprehension. Let me repeat for you. Oppenheimer’s removal after the war probably didn’t impact the weapons program that much. His work was largely done with the Manhattan project. Others like Teller were much more adept at the hydrogen bomb technology and the organizational challenges. Oppenheimer, who was a chain smoker and alcoholic, only lived until 1967. I assume he wouldn’t have been in good shape at the height of the Cold War even in the mid 1960’s when he was diagnosed with cancer.
Anonymous said...
"Funny seeing all this Teller hatred. He’s the the father of LLNL"
That would be Lawrence not Teller.
12/20/2022 7:46 AM
Co-founder with Lawrence. look it up.
12/19/2022 10:54 PM
Verbosity does not equal knowledge.
Verbosity does not equal knowledge.
12/20/2022 7:01 PM
Calling something verbose does invalidate it as evidence.
Co-founder with Lawrence. look it up.
12/20/2022 4:35 PM
No Lawerence was the driver, some people like to claim Teller as founder but that was simply not the case. A second lab was going to have to be built and it was Lawrence that got an already existing site to be the next lab. Teller was to be at the lab at it start but he is not the founder of the lab and even calling him a co-founder is a real stretch. Yes look it up and Wikipedia does not count. Really look it up.
People should read the Wikipedia page on Oppenheimer. He was in deep trouble with the security people long before Teller’s statement. Described himself as a “fellow traveler” to the communist cause. Also, he was mainly on advisory boards after the war, not in any important position. Nevertheless he opposed the hydrogen bomb and its initial testing. I think this made him an outlier and largely irrelevant at that point. He was also given the option of resigning his consulting position at the AEC and avoid the security clearance hearing. Everything that happened to him seams reasonable given the times and his behavior. Also, his problems were largely self inflicted, not a result of Teller’s mildly negative statements.
"People should read the Wikipedia page on Oppenheimer"
Remember the rule, you cannot use Wikipedia as a citation. This rule applies in colleges as well and should apply to blogs. Wikipedia is notorious for getting things utterly wrong, leaving things out, not having context and so long. The moment you said to see the wikipedia page I stoped reading. You need to cite a book, a journal or even a newspaper story. In academics Wikipedia is not accepted for a reason.
I will just say this everything you posted is either wrong, lacks context, and no onet thinks what happened to him seems reasonable.
Anonymous said...
Co-founder with Lawrence. look it up.
12/20/2022 4:35 PM
No Lawerence was the driver, some people like to claim Teller as founder but that was simply not the case. A second lab was going to have to be built and it was Lawrence that got an already existing site to be the next lab. Teller was to be at the lab at it start but he is not the founder of the lab and even calling him a co-founder is a real stretch. Yes look it up and Wikipedia does not count. Really look it up
12/20/2022 9:34 PM
Ha ha. You’re right he was “just going to be there”. Could have been a janitor, I dunno. Ridiculous line of argument. You know nothing of the history of the lab. I won’t burden your mind with any more facts. Go see the Oppenheimer movie and get a popcorn.
Anonymous said...
"People should read the Wikipedia page on Oppenheimer"
Remember the rule, you cannot use Wikipedia as a citation. This rule applies in colleges as well and should apply to blogs. Wikipedia is notorious for getting things utterly wrong, leaving things out, not having context and so long. The moment you said to see the wikipedia page I stoped reading. You need to cite a book, a journal or even a newspaper story. In academics Wikipedia is not accepted for a reason.
I will just say this everything you posted is either wrong, lacks context, and no onet thinks what happened to him seems reasonable.
12/21/2022 7:50 AM
And you cited nothing, sir! Wikipedia contains citations in case you didn’t know.
New York Times obituary of Teller says:
Teller then pressed for creation of a laboratory, independent of Los Alamos, that would focus on the hydrogen bomb. The proposal was rejected by Dr. Oppenheimer's General Advisory Committee, adding to Dr. Teller's resentment. He was able, however, to persuade his friends in the Pentagon — ultimately in a meeting with Secretary of Defense Robert A. Lovett — of the merits of his proposal and the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory came into being east of San Francisco Bay. Dr. Teller served as its director from 1958 to 1960.
Sounds like he’s a founder. Here’s the citation
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/10/obituaries/edward-teller-is-dead-at-95-fierce-architect-of-hbomb.html
Sounds like he’s a founder. Here’s the citation
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/10/obituaries/edward-teller-is-dead-at-95-fierce-architect-of-hbomb.html
Teller is not "the founder" of LLNL, you can argue for him as a co-founder but it sounds like Lawrence was the driving force and
of course Herbert York played a huge role. Again the only place I have anyone say Teller is "sole founder of LLNL" is on this blog and the UFO cranks on Coast to Coast. Now I want my popcorn to see the new Oppenheimer movie. At least 11:41 AM is not using Wikkipeidia.
After detonation of the first Russian atomic bomb in 1949 alarmed Lawrence and other American scientists, who were concerned that the Soviets might advance quickly to the next step, the hydrogen bomb. Lawrence, who had been a key participant in the World War II atomic bomb project at Los Alamos, met in October of 1949 with Edward Teller, a brilliant physicist at the Los Alamos nuclear weapons laboratory, to discuss this threat. Teller advocated a second nuclear weapons laboratory to provide competition, to diversify expertise, and to handle the large volume of work that future fast-breaking discoveries would bring. In late 1951, Thomas Murray, an Atomic Energy Commission member, contacted Lawrence, then director of the University of California’s Radiation Laboratory, to discuss this issue of a second laboratory. Along with Teller and Herbert York, one of Lawrence’s postdoc students, Lawrence won approval for Project Whitney, the early designation of the Livermore Lab.
Interestingly, Teller and Lawrence didn’t see eye to eye on the scope of the new laboratory. Teller envisioned a large, fully staffed facility that would rival Los Alamos in size. Lawrence, more experienced in the ways of bureaucracy, realized that an incremental approach was more likely to win funding and the approval of those who remained skeptical about the need for another laboratory. In the end, Lawrence’s prudence prevailed. Lawrence choose a former naval air station in the Livermore Valley of California for a second laboratory, and on September 2, 1952 the University of California Radiation Laboratory—Livermore Site began doing research in support of the nuclear weapons program at Los Alamos. Herb York was director, and the Lab’s steering committee included Edward Teller, Harold Brown, John S. Foster, Jr., Arthur T. Biehl, and others.
Just after his death in 1958, the University of California Board of Regents voted to rename the Berkeley and Livermore laboratories after E. O. Lawrence.
https://www.llnl.gov/ernest-o-lawrence-co-founder
By the way Teller served only from 1958 to 1960 as the LLNL Director. The reason the tenure was so short was because of what happened with Oppenheimer that Teller became a pariah in science and there was no way he could effectively lead LLNL.
For example
"Close friends simply stopped talking to him and one former colleague publicly refused to shake his hand, a defiant display that led Teller to retire to his room and weep. He was essentially declared a pariah by a large part of the wartime physics community. "
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/the-many-tragedies-of-edward-teller/
There is the truth, and there is what people who never experienced the times or had first-hand knowledge of what really happened, believe about what happened, based mainly on biased historical reporting. Do more in-depth research and get out of your priors bubble. "the truth is out there." But it's not in reading things you already agree with.
"and there is what people"
The issue is that some of us actually meet members of the Manhattan project and others who knew Teller, Oppenheimer, Bethe, Pasta and Lawerence. There is indeed more to this story. The main issues they have are (1) Teller is not the father of the Hydrogen Bomb and Oppenheimer was initially against the weapon on technical grounds but then become for it with the proposals by Pasta. Many people involved in this consider Pasta the father and there are a number of others including Bethe who should also get credit. It is simply incorrect to say that Teller was the inventor or father of the hydrogen bomb. (2) His betrayal of Oppenheimer. I have meet several others from the Manhattan project and people who knew Teller including a few old timers who are still around today. There seems to be fairly consistent picture. If anything the press and books seem nicer to Teller than what I have heard directly from people.
I take you have no idea of what a "prior" how to use them or update them.
I like this one:
“By the way Teller served only from 1958 to 1960 as the LLNL Director. The reason the tenure was so short was because of what happened with Oppenheimer that Teller became a pariah in science and there was no way he could effectively lead LLNL.”
Complete speculation. 20 years later he was pushing SDI (Star Wars) and getting the program at the lab. Not exactly “pariah” material. You don’t have enough knowledge to know about Lowell Wood and that history.
Herbert York was really young. He didn’t found anything,
Learn the difference between “a founder” and “sole founder”. The articles contract what you’re saying and highlight his importance. Also, why was this “pariah” involved in the founding of a second lab. Learn to be consistent in your distorted views.
Funny, Oppenheimer came under suspicion because he attended meetings organized by people with Communist, pro- Soviet leanings. Imagine a Lab director attending pro-Putin, pro-Russian meetings. Imagine him saying he didn’t really believe in Putin’s cause, he was just a “fellow traveler”. Maybe it was just his wife and friends who were supportive of Putin, not him. He was just going along. Now, how would you feel about such a lab director?
As a thought exercise, let’s imagine an alternative universe where Oppenheimer didn’t lose his clearance and the decision makers in Washington followed his recommendations. There would be no Livermore Lab, no development or testing of the hydrogen bomb. The Soviet Union would have of course developed thermonuclear weapons and thus could have had a huge advantage over the west. Maybe the Soviet Union wouldn’t have fallen in 1991. But this would OK because “Oppie” got to keep his clearance and reputation.
12/22/2022 5:00 AM
That analogy makes no sense whatsoever and no historian would take that seriously. At the time Robert said that was in the 30s well before the US had any issues with Soviets, in fact we where on the same same side during ww2 and the Manhattan project. After the war when tensions built with the Soviets and people understand what danger of Communism Robert changes his opinion along with many others. It was a total cheap shot to say since he once did did support them. This is the red scare crap that only motivated by politics not actually threats. Suppose you had voted for Trump in 2016, but realized it was horrible in voted against him 2020, does that mean you are currently a Trump supporter? See how this works. Every historian now believes these red witch hunts where just that. I suppose we could find out that the current labs director liked the Cosby show in the 80s, does that mean he still supports him or his actions today. Somone like you would say yes. Right after 9/11 several presidents worked with Putin and praised Putin for helping with the war on terror, does that mean that Bush and Obama are on the side of Putin today? See how this works. I am surprised that you would use this argument since I almost never find anyone who falls for this kind of faulty logic.
"Complete speculation. 20 years later he was pushing SDI (Star Wars) and getting the program at the lab. Not exactly “pariah” material. You don’t have enough knowledge to know about Lowell Wood and that history. "
I know way more about Lowell Wood than you do. First of all the guy is total crackpot. He is that bizarre distinction of having the most useless inventions ever patented. His ideas are total nonsense and have amounted to nothing. Ever meet the guy or seen him on video ? He is total idiot and suckup. By the way look up his scientific record. Also Wood is referred to as a physicist. He is not a physicists he does not have a degree in physics and certainly does not understand physics. Please do not associated Wood with physicists. He is considered a crackpot by the community and is yet another tarnish on Tellers record to be associated with someone that dumb. Below is some fun stuff.
http://www.dickdestiny.com/blog/2006/12/crackpot-electromagnetic-pulse-doom.html
Wood has a richly deserved reputation as a crackpot stemming from regular appearances as leading member of the EMP lobby. Rolling Stone magazine writes gamely of his interests, noting "Wood is infamous for championing fringe science, from X-ray lasers to cold-fusion nuclear reactors . . . "
Threat advocacy has also been his bag, Wood being one of the knee-jerk practitioners of the American national security way of finding theoretical enemies and then telling the government what to do about them on the taxpayer's dime. And that's worked superbly in the war on terror.
As for SDI the 80s version is considered a total failure the American Physical Society even made statement as such on it. The proponents now say despite it being a failure that helped scare the Soviet Union but again no serious historian believes this.
In any case I have heard all this stuff before oddly enough on Coast to Coast show on the work Teller and Wood did on UFOs, it is always the same thing Nobel Prize winner Ed Teller who invited the Hydrogen bomb, found LLNL and created SDI works with Lowell Wood, the man who changed the world by having even more inventions than Thomas Edison both also secretly worked on UFOs as reapplied by our guess Bon Lazar.
"There would be no Livermore Lab, no development or testing of the hydrogen bomb."
False why do you keep saying this. Oppenheimer was against super on technical grounds but changed his mind when he saw the design
from the real father of the super, Pasta. He and many others where on board after that. Why do you keep saying this stuff? I
12/22/2022 5:29 AM
The other thing you have to realize it was not just that Oppenheimer was removed from his position but had his clearance removed. Leaders change all the time when the direction of the mission change but the fact they went out of their way to remove is clearance was purely political. This is the main reason people have such a problem with Teller. Even today we have people like you that still think Oppenheimer is some kind communist. Imagine an alternative universes where Oppenheimer was just told to move on and new person would be in charge, I bet you would no go on about him being a communist. Teller might not even have the bad reputation that he has now.
12/22/2022 5:29 AM
Speculative rubbish, unsupported by anything.
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