Anonymously contributed:
I remember SPSE pleading with everyone with the slogan "The next job you save may be your own". They tried to get the minimum number of signatures required to acquire union status back in 2007.Remember that?
Even if they became our Union, you were under no obligation to join it. So, what were people afraid of?
Many of us, white collars, thought we were too good to have union representation.
We thought we were smug and sacred.
NNSA/LLNS have been feeding us a steady line of bull. All we have been good at is whine.
Someone, somewhere else in this BLOG, said LLNS respects unions, not whiners!
For those who shunned SPSE: enjoy the salary freeze, soon the tcp1 required contributions and rising cost of benefits! unless we can unionize. Is it too late to unionize?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts you viewed tbe most last 30 days
-
LGBT intolerance problem at Sandia? I was just checking glassdoor.com and noticed several comments suggesting intolerance to LGBT at Sandia...
-
So what do the NNSA labs do under the the 2nd Trump administration ? What are the odds we will have a test?
-
So did you SSVSP and why? Give details.
54 comments:
The only thing worse than a corrupt, bloated, arrogant union is a corrupt, bloated, arrogant upper management team.
We have the second one, but not the first. That is why lab upper management laughs at the workers, knowing full well they they can run rough-shod all over them in any way that they wish.
I prefer to have some protection from NNSA and our for-profit upper managent team (who have failed to share any of the lab's for-profit "treasures" with the workers).
Perhaps it is time to hold your nose and think about working toward professional union representation to legally stand up for lab's workers, else it will only get worse with time.
If not SPSE, then perhaps some other professional union might work out. Heck, just the rumors of unionization would probably put both NNSA and lab upper management on edge and change their current morale busting behavior.
Recall that it was the union at NASA Ames that got some of the worst of the full cost recovery turned off.
Could it get worse with a union? Maybe. But at the moment I'm not sure how.
The act of forming an independent body of professionals to protect and cultivate employee interests would be judged a management failure.
This is reason enough to consider it.
The concerns about being represented by two bad entities rather than one bad one; union and management rather than management alone, are real. But a contract does perserve at least for a time, the status quo.
The key union weapons, threats of violence and strikes, are not generally available to white collar folks.
However, an academic senate, or shadow cabinet, or employee association of weapons scientists or other town hall meeting based independent collective voice could raise issues and even make demands.
For instance. How do we know that TCP-1 is being managed properly? We are at risk but have no visibility. An employee professional assocication could suggest/demand an employee representative. UCRS has two.
It could raise employee awareness and foment action. It could clearly speak to the media on employment matters. It could create a real energy policy or provide effective critique for the slow pace of stewardship policy. It could openly criticize DOE leadership.
It could create tiger teams or working groups to create alternatives or public dissent.
A shadow cabinet could consider current management positions and provide more employee friendly alternatives. IE, a no confidence vote for a DOE manager...
But LLNS and LANS have $100M+ a year to donate to politician's re-election funds; mordida in the old country. An employee association would need a strategy to get out the vote, to counter the corporate access bribes.
It could openly and forcefully create an objection that laying off 1700 useful employees to fund a useless management company and overhead for another useless layer of management is a genuinely stupid idea. The perpetrators should be shipped back to mother England with a note to the Queen, " with apologies, we return these jackasses"
A quick check of the SPSE website shows it to be still up but it doesn't appear to have been updated in nearly a year. Last I heard all the Skilled Trades members had been laid off in violation of contract provisions and were challenging the action in court. Any body heard different?
If not SPSE, then perhaps some other professional union might work out. Heck, just the rumors of unionization would probably put both NNSA and lab upper management on edge and change their current morale busting behavior.
February 9, 2011 9:14 PM
Here here! For those of you who have experienced the "wrath of Knapp" can vouch for the need for some form of protection from "unleashed" managers like Knapp. Knapp is currently acting without impunity. Sign me up!
I was in a union making beer kegs operating 40 ton presses way way back when. In between schools making money to pay living expenses when I went back in school. I was not real happy paying dues. However, this situation with the for profit units running science laboratory’s (yeah, there is manufacturing, etc) is killing research. I have thought many times how nice it would be to have some leverage with management (I was in management for years btw). Maybe we need to change the name union to something else. Rebrand it. Regardless, I would sign up now if there were an opportunity. Anyone understand how to get started?
If the union members utilize their only real weapon - strikes, who are they hurting? If you are working with other government agency funding, your strike will kill your program. Otherwise it will kill your career. The only reason for professional scientists and engineers to join a union is if you have already decided your career is over, you have no chance of changing employer, and you are just trying to limit additional damage done by a management you are totally under the control of. Pretty pathetic. Why not just find another job? Answer that question honestly for yourself, and you'll probably see the way out.
If your really serious about an 'uprising', find a champion! Preferably a world renowned scientist that will take a stand for a return to a 'campus/collegiate' environment where r&d is rewarded and management is marginalized.
Are we being romanticized by the institution that we are working for?
Isn't that how unions are formed?
"However, an academic senate, or shadow cabinet, or employee association of weapons scientists or other town hall meeting based independent collective voice could raise issues and even make demands." (12:19 am)
I think the Lab Fellows at LANL suggested something like this in one of their White Papers back in 2005. It went nowhere.
We are no longer working under UC. We work under a corporatized "for profit" LLC that has successfully stripped away almost all of the veneer of academic culture.
Given this, a well run professional union is probably the only way left to stop the destruction of science and employee morale by the likes of Bechtel.
"Is it too late to unionize? "
Yes
We are no longer working under UC. We work under a corporatized "for profit" LLC that has successfully stripped away almost all of the veneer of academic culture.
February 11, 2011 9:33 PM
They have only stripped away ALL the veneer but also eating right through the mahogany (aka science) like an infestation of termites.
"Is it too late to unionize? "
Yes
February 11, 2011 10:11 PM
Thank you Bret Knapp.
To 2/10/2011 1039 hrs I was one of those skilled craftsmembers who were laid off back in May of 2008. It's been what, close to 3 years now? and can honestly say that nothing substantial has been done about the issue. We did receive a letter requesting updated personal information over a year ago, but nothing since then. Your right about the website too, hasn't been updated for awhile has it? From what I hear through the grapevine, It's rumored that the members want to quit trying to fight for those who were laid-off, and just take care of those who are still able to pay pay thier dues. If this is true, do you want an organization representing you who already have the reputation of abandoning those who most need them? I feel for you who are insecure about thier jobs because I was one of them, and to the person stating " just go find another job " Have you been living under a rock? On the outside ( outside of LLNS' utopian workforce) decent paying jobs are very scarce, even with an advanced degree, you still might be able to teach but with the cuts coming to the school system that may not pan out either. I truly wish you all the luck in keeping your jobs,but unless you hear any more news about what SPSE is doing for those that trusted them, I wouldn't put any faith in the organization.
Yes there is an upside to unions.
If you want to know the downside just watch the news.
Unions are heavily involved with the Democratic party even giving Jerry Brown $80 million to help get elected.
I guess that is ok if you have liberal tendencies.
If you'd like to follow the teachers unions, youtube Gov. Chris Christy of New Jersey who is fighting them to reform the educational system there(tenure after 3 years, cannot fire a bad teacher).
If you want to follow the nurses union just ask how much a nurse gets paid presently ($70 an hour).
The construction union membership is down to 11% of the total workforce in California because they have priced themselves out of the market. And they just received new raises.
Prevailing wage is a Union/Democratic Party partnership that by law a contractor has to pay union wages ($70ph) on any public job. in other words a non union contractor cannot pay their people $30 or $40 an hour they have to pay the $70 or else a Union contractor would be underbid every time.
The newest Union scheme is called PLA's (Project Labor Agreements) where the Unions try to get local cities and counties and school boards to have union only contracts (PLA's) for the construction of public facilities under the guise of hiring locally. The Brentwood Civic Center was a PLA contract and probably cost 10-30% more to build because it was union only.
So how do you think the unions get a city or county to change there charter to PLA's?
If you guessed giving campaign contributions you'd be right.
I know this sounds antiunion but I am really just a free market guy without a union mentality.
I've talked to some of our Plant people. Some of them did not know they were signing up for a Union when they filled out the cards. They said they were told the cards were for information only. Shady!
I don't like the fact that Unions can take my money and give it to a politician that I do not support.
Gov. Arnold tried to stop that his first term but the measure was voted down in an off year election.
Many of my friends are in Unions but the Unions have become political tools in this day and age, unfortunately.
9:45, agree! The original purpose for Unions is long gone. It has turned into something most people would rather not be a part of these days.
I say, we just do it!
I don't like the fact that Unions can take my money and give it to a politician that I do not support.
But you don't have a problem to give your money to banks, who support politicians. Do you really believe you would have vacation, 40 hours week, no child labor without unions?
You are another example of a brainwashed person, who just out of reflex calls everything from unions bad.
If you believe for just one moment that business will do what is right for their employees without outside pressure you are an even bigger fool than I thought is possible. You probably also believe that the government should not make any regulations and enforce them, like OSHA.
With all due respect I am a conservative and do not want my union dues going to the Democratic Party.....whats wrong with that.
Also there should be "some" government regulations. Just for the record I am not against that.
This thread kinda got off track. From the specific, would an employee organization return some power to employees, to a general,
" I am free, you are not so free, diatribe"
Refocussing.
"Would an employee organization return some power to the employees?".
It might.
But consider there are consequences.
Regardless of where this union issue might go, keep in mind there is going to be a lot of self-interested or greedy people who will do "everything in their power" (quoting Admiral Pete Nanos) to stop any attempts to form a union. I don't even rule out LLNS/LANS paying "moles" to subterfuge or topple it. As you can tell, all my trust in LLNS/LANS managers is gone, zero!
In 2007 I signed the S&E union card because I THOUGHT it would be worth the risk.
Now that it is a few years later, I am CERTAIN it is worth the risk of any negatives associated with unions.
Lets review the data since 2007:
- We have had a significant RIF to pay for the new "for profit" management.
- We continue to experience benefit cuts.
- New hires are not eligible for a pension, & will have to cover their own medical & dental when they retire.
- We are under a salary freeze.
- We do not receive any of the contract bonus money.
I am CERTAIN that a union would have at least got some of the bonus money to the employees, and may have been enough to cover union dues.
They are rolling over us, and we don't have much of a voice.
I thank the blog administrator for this forum.
Hey Feb 12th 5:55!
Thank you for you words of encouragement!
There is a good reason only 12% of workers nationwide are unionized. They promise much but do nothing except enrich the union leadership. Corruption is rampant. Go in that direction at your own peril . Much better to bargain with your own productivity, value as an employee, and overall benefit to the company. Don't have those? Oops.
"I don't like the fact that Unions can take my money and give it to a politician that I do not support."("John")
And yet... Bechtel and BWXT take their lab profits and do the very same thing. You have no control over the money they tax from your labor and that they receive from managing the NNSA labs.
Bechtel, in particular, is a very political company that gives generously to certain politicians. At least with a union, you can vote on what happens with the union dues. What control do you have over the use of the profits that your current employer, LLNS/Bechtel, collects from the lab?
Get real, John. Do you really enjoy fighting for your employee rights as an individual with a BB gun while the corporate greed-heads on the other side of the table have a canon? Let me give you a hint: Taking this approach you will lose EVERY time!
After getting past the "why" part, here is the "how":
Steps to Create a Union Where You Work (OPEIU)
Office & Professional Employees International Union
http://www.opeiu.org/NeedAUnion/
StepstoCreatingaUnionWorkplace/tabid/
71/Default.aspx
Get real, John. Do you really enjoy fighting for your employee rights as an individual with a BB gun while the corporate greed-heads on the other side of the table have a canon? Let me give you a hint: Taking this approach you will lose EVERY time!
February 12, 2011 10:21 PM
BB gun! Give me a break, we are not even blowing air into the ear of LLNS/LANS Management. LANS/LLNS Management does not even know or care they have workers, only PBIs.
9:17 PM, well put. One problem I have with unions is that they attempt to protect ALL of their members, including those who barely put in their hours and offer little value to the company. I for one don't want to be lumped in with employees who have poor work ethics; I'd rather fend for myself and give them a reason to keep me. There are many good teachers out there, but thanks to unions there are those still employed who should have been gone a long time ago, for example.
From the original post:
"Even if they became our Union, you were under no obligation to join it. So, what were people afraid of?
Many of us, white collars, thought we were too good to have union representation.
We thought we were smug and sacred."
I'd say that comments 2/12/11 9:17 PM and 2/13/11 11:35 AM fall into that category.
4:32, do you disagree with the issues some folks have with unions? I have yet to see someone defend or justify the points that were brought up. Let's hear a good counterpoint.
Unions sound good to people who feel powerless. That is how they got started and flourished for so many decades, often with good results for the members. What part of the LLNL or LANL workforce feels powerless today? I submit is is the technical and scientific workers who are no longer confident in their ability to be valuable to their employer. Granted that this is mainly because of a change in the employer, not the employee. However, why would they not still be valuable to some employer more akin to the UC? I fail to understand the attitude of professional employees that they are trapped and need a union. A study just reported today says there are many openings nationwide in the technological sector that are going unfilled because of lack of qualified employees. So, just fear of change fostered by so many years under UC, or fear of having your lack of real qualification and competence exposed?
Feb 12th 5:49am and 10:39 am
The case of nine FTES that were laid off in 07 is now being handled by the National Labor Board in Washington DC; the labor board now represents the union in a suite against LLNS for unfairly laying off the nine unit members.
As for Skilled trade members stating they where under durest when signing the union cards is management BS; It was clearly explained to each person in a informational meetings and one on one conversation.
Here are some facts on the skill trade union
1. in our first contract we recieved a 8.39% pay raise for two years. High voltage electricains were bumbed to grade 13 with a additional 5% on top of the 8.39%
2. we are currently under 2007 pollicy manual, not the 2011 policy manual that the rest of the lab fellows.
3.we are currently in contract talks over our next salary increases.
4. the 2 year salary freeze dose not pretain to union contracts in place or contracts being bargained.
5. if you want to see how a contract is bargain feel free to stop by feb 22 at 1pm public affairs trailer next to discovery center; the bargaining session are open to employees
UPTE LOCAL 11 LLNL SKILL CRAFTS
Inventors Unite!
We don't have to re-invent the wheel. We can however have a voice, united to effect the conditions of our employment. Be what ever it may, if you join, if you speak up, and if you vote, together we can effectively create a forum that works.
I stand by my statement
that some Plant workers told me
they were told the cards were for informational purposes only.
Shady!
Unlike LLNL and LANL, most of the workers at GM - lately referred to as "Government Motors"- are unionized. However, even non-unionized salaried workers appear to be getting a hefty part of the company bonuses this year at GM.
And here at the newly "for profit" managed NNSA labs? Not a chance. It's all reserved for the exec boys and girls at the very top. PBI's Baby!:
*
GM to pay more than $400 million in worker bonuses
AP News, Feb 14
*
DETROIT (AP) -- Less than two years after entering bankruptcy, General Motors will extend millions of dollars in bonuses to most of its 48,000 hourly workers as a reward for the company's rapid turnaround after it was rescued by the government.
The payments, disclosed Monday in company documents, are similar to bonuses announced last week for white-collar employees. The bonuses to 76,000 American workers will probably total more than $400 million - an amount that suggests executives have increasing confidence in the automaker's comeback.
...Most of GM's hourly workers will get a record payment of more than $4,000 - more than double the previous record in 1999, at the height of the boom in sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks. Nearly all 28,000 white-collar workers such as engineers and managers will get 4 to 16 percent of their base pay. A few - less than 1 percent - will get 50 percent or more.
..The company would not say how much the white-collar bonuses will cost, but calculations made by The Associated Press show the total will probably top $200 million.
Most GM salaried workers earn in excess of $100,000 per year. A bonus of 8 percent, the midpoint of the range, would give them roughly $8,000 each. That means GM would pay out roughly $224 million.
An $8,000 annual bonus for the average salaried worker at GM? Not too shabby!
Of course, without the government's $54 billion bailout, GM would be totally bankrupt by now and those hefty annual bonuses would never see the light of day.
I have a vision of a person with “SPSE” printed across their back kicking a dead horse with “LLNL” printed across its butt; or is it the other way around. In either case, stick a fork in it the union option is done. With the upward cost associated with unions and an overhead that is already bloated, WFO’s and other projects would dry up faster once unions were established. The only thing keeping LLNL going is some fallout from stimulus spending; and that’s about to end.
And here at the newly "for profit" managed NNSA labs? Not a chance. It's all reserved for the exec boys and girls at the very top. PBI's Baby!
It isn't all going to the execs. Plenty is flowing back to the parent entities. How do you think UC is funding those cooperative research activities with the campuses?
It isn't all going to the execs. Plenty is flowing back to the parent entities.
February 15, 2011 8:41 PM
As provided for in the contracts. Are you surprised?
Incomes for 90% of Americans have been stuck in neutral, and it's not just because of the Great Recession. Middle-class incomes have been stagnant for at least a generation, while the wealthiest tier has surged ahead at lighting speed.
In 1988, the income of an average American taxpayer was $33,400, adjusted for inflation. Fast forward 20 years, and not much had changed: The average income was still just $33,000 in 2008, according to IRS data.
Meanwhile, the richest 1% of Americans -- those making $380,000 or more -- have seen their incomes grow 33% over the last 20 years, leaving average Americans in the dust.
Experts point to some of the usual suspects -- like technology and globalization -- to explain the widening gap between the haves and have-nots.
But there's more to the story.
A real drag on the middle class
One major pull on the working man was the decline of unions and other labor protections, said Bill Rodgers, a former chief economist for the Labor Department, now a professor at Rutgers University.
Because of deals struck through collective bargaining, union workers have traditionally earned 15% to 20% more than their non-union counterparts, Rodgers said.
But union membership has declined rapidly over the past 30 years. In 1983, union workers made up about 20% of the workforce. In 2010, they represented less than 12%.
"The erosion of collective bargaining is a key factor to explain why low-wage workers and middle income workers have seen their wages not stay up with inflation," Rodgers said.
Without collective bargaining pushing up wages, especially for blue-collar work -- average incomes have stagnated.
0:00 /1:53How do you define middle class?
International competition is another factor. While globalization has lifted millions out of poverty in developing nations, it hasn't exactly been a win for middle class workers in the U.S.
Factory workers have seen many of their jobs shipped to other countries where labor is cheaper, putting more downward pressure on American wages.
"As we became more connected to China, that poses the question of whether our wages are being set in Beijing," Rodgers said.
Finding it harder to compete with cheaper manufacturing costs abroad, the U.S. has emerged as primarily a services-producing economy. That trend has created a cultural shift in the job skills American employers are looking for.
Whereas 50 years earlier, there were plenty of blue collar opportunities for workers who had only high school diploma, now employers seek "soft skills" that are typically honed in college, Rodgers said.
A boon for the rich
While average folks were losing ground in the economy, the wealthiest were capitalizing on some of those same factors, and driving an even bigger wedge between themselves and the rest of America.
For example, though globalization has been a drag on labor, it's been a major win for corporations who've used new global channels to reduce costs and boost profits. In addition, new markets around the world have created even greater demand for their products.
"With a global economy, people who have extraordinary skills... whether they be in financial services, technology, entertainment or media, have a bigger place to play and be rewarded from," said Alan Johnson, a Wall Street compensation consultant.
As a result, the disparity between the wages for college educated workers versus high school grads has widened significantly since the 1980s.
In 1980, workers with a high school diploma earned about 71% of what college-educated workers made. In 2010, that number fell to 55%.
Another driver of the rich: The stock market.
The S&P 500 has gained more than 1,300% since 1970. While that's helped the American economy grow, the benefits have been disproportionately reaped by the wealthy.
And public policy of the past few decades has only encouraged the trend.
February 16, 2011 4:12 PM
It has always been true that money makes money. So don't blame the rich for getting richer. How could it be otherwise, in a free economy? People end up where they must, based on the education and lifestyle choices they make. It isn't rocket science. You sound like you think somebody should do something. Who, and what? Without trampling on the Constitution, that is. Or were you just venting, Long-windedly)?
People end up where they must, based on the education and lifestyle choices they make.
It's really not that deterministic. Or did G.W. Bush choose to be the son of G.H.W. Bush?
I will definitely grant you there are correlations and increasing one's odds through reasonable choices. There's also chance and contingency.
The new corporate overlords have apparently decided that unions and collective bargaining should be made illegal. Just look at the mess that happened this week at the State houses of Wisconsin and Ohio.
No need to even think about a lab union. At the rate things are going, they'll be rounding up the union bosses and throwing them in jail! This country appears to be moving toward corporate fascism at an amazing rate of speed.
The new corporate overlords have apparently decided that unions and collective bargaining should be made illegal. Just look at the mess that happened this week at the State houses of Wisconsin and Ohio.
February 17, 2011 10:56 PM
If you are going to post, you really should have some facts first. Did you miss that this is state Governors and Legislators fighting back against greedy PUBLIC SECTOR unions? Because the states are broke? Where do you get "corporate overlords"?? Just had to jump in with your favorite canned reply, huh?
There is a rampant opinion among the population that deficit federal spending is ok because we've been doing it for so long and nothing bad will happen, fueled mostly because nothing bad HAS happened, yet.
However, many states must, by their own constitutions, balance their budgets. I have yet to hear public employee and teacher unions state where they would cut.
Time for more cut-backs in the benefits and salary of the workers at the labs also, huh, 10:49 am?
Let me guess, you support the radical Tea Party agenda to hand American workers over to complete corporate control?
Time for more cut-backs in the benefits and salary of the workers at the labs also, huh, 10:49 am?
Let me guess, you support the radical Tea Party agenda to hand American workers over to complete corporate control?
February 19, 2011 9:11 AM
American workers in the private sector are and have been under "complete corporate control." Only around 12% belong to unions. In the public sector, which the post was about, the percentage is much higher and is the primary driver for states' insolvency.
I am almost seeing modern unions as part of the "entitlement mentality" here in California.
Let me explain.
With only 12% of the private sectors unionized,
many unions are associated with state governments.
First of all.
Also all construction unions only survive on public sector jobs (schools, water plants, etc.) because of the union friendly laws passed by our wonderful (democratic) assembly in return for the unions support (Unions financed a majority of Jerry Browns campaign $80 million).
In other words union construction cannot compete in the private sector because they are priced out of the market.
It is kind of like they are on the public teet because they rarely work in the private sector and because of their high wages the cost of our state and local construction jobs go up.
Secondly,
many state workers are in unions.
However you feel it is a fact that Entitlements are the main reason California is broke.
And I include unions in that category along with all of the entitlements in California because unions cannot survive or won't survive in the public sector and have to suck on the government nipple.
And it is sucked dry, dry and dry.
Did i say dry. It is withered.
It is incredibly ironic to see Jerry Brown calling for cutbacks in government spending. "Governor Moonbeam" must have fallen off his.
If you are going to post, you really should have some facts first. Did you miss that this is state Governors and Legislators fighting back against greedy PUBLIC SECTOR unions? Because the states are broke? Where do you get "corporate overlords"?? Just had to jump in with your favorite canned reply, huh?
February 18, 2011 10:49 AM
Hmm, Interesting. The reason hat public employees are still having
decent pensions and health care is exactly because of unions. It strikes me as somewhat ironic that people are complaining about unions because they are too successful.
And to claim that the state and federal budgets are of because of these unions is totally off. How about the tax cutting ideology of the Reagan Voodoo economics of the last 30 years? Where is all the promised trickle down? Why are corporations making huge profits, but paying less and less taxes?
Probably again the bad unions who force the corporations to be greedy.
And finally: If you don't like the unions don't join one.
And finally: If you don't like the unions don't join one.
February 22, 2011 5:22 AM
Not an option in a union shop.
Post a Comment