CK asked:
I've been reading the LLNL blog, and despite the many comments about working at the company being negative in nature I still have a few a questions that I'm hoping you can answer.
I am about to graduate with a BS in physics, and I have wanted to work for a national lab for some time. ORNL, LLNL, and LANL are the ones that I most want to work for. Is it possible to work at these places with just a BS?
And also, would you happen to know of a number in HR I can call for potential hires? I found various other lines, but none for someone who is hoping to get a job at LLNL.
If these are not questions I should be asking you, then I'm really sorry...
Thanks for blogging! It's been very informative.
59 comments:
It takes a special person to work at LLNL. Special means one of 3 things:
- special because you love what you do so much that you dont care about money. Raises have been pitiful and there is a 2-year freeze.
- special because you are so incompetent and know that none out there will hire you outside.
- You know you are skilled but you searched for other opportunities on the outside but found no match and are stuck for now.
Check:
https://www.llnl.gov/contact.php
abd jobl..lnl.gov
There may be a few jobs for BS physics, e.g. as technicians or computer programmers; check the job sites at:
careers.llnl.gov
www.hr.lanl.gov/FindJob/
jobs.ornl.gov
As a recent retiree I'd look at PNL
I would look at PNNL and ORL. ORL has been expanding and appears to have escaped some of the problems of LANL an LLNL have experienced. I would not recommend going to LANL. Under the LLC it has been falling apart. And they don't even seem to get it. Oh, sure TA55 has a new building and parking lot....lol. Looks real goooood from where I sit!!!!!!
A BS in Physics can be a dead-end degree, depending on how imaginative you are. You won't be "doing physics" with that degree, but as others have posted, maybe computer programming, or a high-level technician job (not really technical staff but maybe taking routine data on an experiment or setting up analysis of data). By all means (unless you are so inclined and don't really have a "connection" to physics as a career) don't let yourself get sucked into environmental stuff, contract performance monitoring, training, safety, quality assurance, or the like. They will utilize your knowledge of the "language" of science without ever letting you do science, and you will be reviled by the true scientists you are "monitoring". My advice? Get a Masters or PhD if you love physics.
"I would not recommend going to LANL. Under the LLC it has been falling apart. And they don't even seem to get it." (5:59 pm)
I give a very strong agreement to 5:59's opinion. It really is "falling apart" at Los Alamos since Bechtel took over the lab on a "for profit" LLC management contract. Sig Hecker, a former LANL Director from the 1990s, is on record in Congress for calling Los Alamos a dismal, risk averse "prison" under the new management system.
But, then again, if you like being constantly reminded to "wear shoes that GRIP!", don't mind being forced to watch silly training videos on how to properly walk up stairs and eagerly look forward to excelling on safety and security Performance Based Initiatives (PBIs) so that your executive management team can get rich (mind you, no PBI bonuses are allowed for the peons)... Hey, then LANL is your kind of place.
February 4, 2011 9:38 PM:
Yeah, giving a prospective young scientist your deeply held, bitter prejudices in the guise of "advice" is really sick. Please, original poster, do not listen to these old, bitter, used-to-be's. Their once bright ambition has been beaten down, but you don't have to go that way. Choose a way that seems promising and keep your options open through Facebook and LinkdIn, and networking with your peers. You never have to choose a life-long position to get trapped in, and should never do so. Always choose positions that you can excel in and then move to a higher one, with whichever employer gives you the option. Never commit to a single employer for life. As you can see it is death. Save as much money as you can for your retirement as soon as you can! Good luck.
"February 4, 2011 10:18 PM"
For life advice what 10:18 PM sounds about right. I have to say that in good conscience I can no longer recommend Los Alamos as any place for talented young people. However, you are young and a few years at LANL or LLNL would be fine for learning some skills and a few facts about life and as 10:18PM says if you keep your options open you can always move on. You are free and there is no need to ever be bitter. On the other hand Sandia, ORNL, and, PNNL seem more vibrant for the future.
On the other hand Sandia, ORNL, and, PNNL seem more vibrant for the future...
all have brighter, more committed,more pragmatic congressional support.
LANL and LLNL support stinks.
I've worked at LLNL during the 70's and 80's when innovation was promoted and there were several weapon development programs such as ASW, EPW, B83, W87, etc. I worked at Los Alamos during the 90's, and 00's when innovation and science was nourished and funded. Unfortunately, during the past 5-years LLNS/LANS have no weapon development programs and are crushing innovation and science. The Labs have no visionary leaders, management abuses workers to meet performance measures for profit, and have no mission to speak of. Sad but true.
Hey folks, I'm CK. haha
Thanks for the advice! I like to have it - the good, the bad and the ugly. I've looked into PNL and have already applied to two jobs there as well. Thanks so much for that tip!
Would any of you know who to contact in HR if a potential hire wanted to follow up on an application?
You could work at LLNL but understand what you are getting into. Workers are largely not rewarded, magically most acolades and financial benefits go to managers. There is a huge top heavy management at LLNL who spend much of their time justifying their own existence. And when layoffs come, again magically, no managers are affected but you might, so you will have that uncertainty. You will need a high tolerance for BS and will need to let it role off your back or you will find it difficult day to day. The initial pay is usually decent, but see above about raises and the future.
Poster 12:56 pm is another bitter, wash-out old-timer who is not instep with the much improve LLNL culture under LLNS management. Don't listen to these whiners. LLNL is a great place to work that eagerly rewards the high achievers. If you aren't making a large enough salary, it is because you are not contributing the the bottom line! End of story.
OK, here's a true story. Here's how it works at the Labs now. We've been given memos and instructional videos explaining this situation. Make of this what you will.
Let's suppose you get a contract paying 25% of your time and one paying 75%. Things get busy. The Gov't agency paying 25% of your time needs some result (and, honestly, some of this stuff really matters -- in spite of what you may hear, there can be life or death situations resting on your work). You need to do a little more on that contract paying 25% of your time.
So, you spend 8 hours one saturday of your own time doing some writing or testing or whatever is needed.
You get rewarded, right? No, you get in trouble. Because, the rules say, if you volunteer 8 hours of your own time on that 25% contract, you've got to then put in another 24 hours of your own time on the other contract.
That's because the US Congress, in its infinite wisdom, has converted its once useful Labs to for-profit contract R&D centers. They all have marketing departments, they all compete with each other, and it's getting nasty.
Science takes a back seat. And now, we learn, so does the national interest -- what matters is how you charge.
But, the good news is the people who run these for-profit entities can take part in the legalized bribery otherwise known as campaign contributions. So don't expect this to get any better.
Poster 10:10 AM: Uhh wrong on all counts, in fact I am in the younger grouping of lab employees. As for do nothings, I got a stack of awards for my work. So I don't mean any offense, but your an idiot. Next time comment on facts, not what you would like to believe.
Yeah, I can tell you're younger because you can't spell "you're."
I just hope someone from HR at LLNS or LANL is paying close attention to the responses their "potential" new hire received here. Good luck LLNS and LANL.
".you get rewarded, right? No, you get in trouble. Because, the rules say, if you volunteer 8 hours of your own time on that 25% contract, you've got to then put in another 24 hours of your own time on the other contract. "
I don' t think this is correct. What you do with your own time is your own business, you can donate it, withhold it or spend it at the track...
just don't get caught reading Wikileaks.....
That is as long as you are in the professional/managerial group of "exempt" from state labor laws (monthly pay scale).
Non-exempt (hourly) workers have a more protected workday. They must get paid for each hour worked.
"I don' t think this is correct. What you do with your own time is your own business, you can donate it, withhold it or spend it at the track..."
Believe it. It's correct. When you put in *your own time* on a project, i.e. time outside the normal 40 hours/week envelope, the new interpretation of the rules just handed down require that you make it proportionate. You've got to donate *your own time* to the other projects too.
The days when you could just dump in a weekend on a late project to make it up are gone.
Well, not really tone. People are going to ignore this rule and just do the work anyway, let's face it. Most of us work extra time on nights and weekends as it is. But the training and the videos we've been told to watch tell us this can get us in trouble.
We're not Labs any more, we're paid-by-the-hour contractors. I guess it makes sense to have Bechtel running the show.
"Thanks for the advice! I like to have it - the good, the bad and the ugly."
Good luck. The labs used to have a good education program so if you get in you can work your way up to a masters degree. Not sure if llnl still has funds for that though.
February 7, 2011 7:31 PMĪ©:
I don' t think this is correct. What you do with your own time is your own business, you can donate it, withhold it or spend it at the track...
I am sorry, but this is correct. The training we all had to watch clearly spells it out. No fs or buts. I am waiting or the Bechtel police to show up at night and see what I am doing in my spare time. Of course people will ignore it, it is just another example of how absolutely stupid management and NNSA are.
There is another side effect to this new rule. If you work on just one project in your spare time, because of the prorating requirement, you now have to reduce
the number you report having worked on the other project. This f course leads to under-reporting of the actual effort. But that is too much math for our management.
The new time reporting regulations for "exempt" employees at the NNSA labs are truly insane.
And, yes, this fits right in with the Bechtel mindset of how to properly run a once crown-jewel "science lab".
Believe it. It's correct. When you put in *your own time* on a project, i.e. time outside the normal 40 hours/week envelope, the new interpretation of the rules just handed down require that you make it proportionate.
It may be new to the labs, but this was surely what we had to deal with in the private sector during the 1990s as exempt employees performing on an SBIR. I think the client perspective is they don't want to pay 50% of someone's salary but only get 33% of their effort. I don't think they would have gotten wrapped around the axle over a single Saturday, but would be concerned about it being a pervasive practice.
DOD privatized support (Bechtel, and others)and some of their ground forces (Blackwater, now Xe). The DOE privatized nuclear weapons. As soon as the Air Force privatizes their pilots and launch crews, and the Navy privatizes their boomer crews, we can all sit back and relax knowing that our national security is in the hands of corporate America. Eisenhower wasn't even close!
"...I am sorry, but this is correct. The training we all had to watch clearly spells it out. No fs or buts.."
Please name the training class and location. No disrespect, just not believable without verification.
So, if I cut back my workweek on one project because I'm pissed, I can cut it on all?
Finally, a substantial equivalence I can support!
I fill my timecard out on Mondays the way I'm supposed to.
Then on Wednesday, I'm still at work at 7pm trying to get something done.
Shit came up, assignments grew, management bothered me for info they could have looked up, my computer froze, I took a required class, I mentored a coworker, I messed around. How the hell do I know why I am still at work at 7pm?
I go home and forget about it. Release the timecard on Friday unless an unexpected day off occured. Someone more anal may fuss about it.
I can honestly say I don't know, cause I don't think too hard about it, Instead, I do what I am paid to do, the only thing that I actually agree to do, I solve the technical challenges that baffle me. The rest I tolerate.
Accounting is for people who can't cut it in science. Law is for people who can't cut it as humans.
This is bogus. If an employee travels long hours off-site, they are not expected to work extra hours on-site for another project, they won't even be there to do it. Not credible.
"Please name the training class and location. No disrespect, just not believable without verification.
February 10, 2011 12:35 AM"
Clearly you are not at LANL or have not watched the video yet. Otherwise you would not make that statement.
Go away to some other blog.
I head that there will be daily
"punch cards", when you start work and when work ends. It will also be used to enforce regular hours for safety and security reasons. Does anyone know the details of this or is it just talk?
Law is for people who can't cut it as humans.
February 10, 2011 1:03 AM
No, law is for humans to protect themselves from people who can't cut it as humans.
Accounting is for people who can't cut it in science. Law is for people who can't cut it as humans.
February 10, 2011 1:03 AM
So you denigrate the accountant who saves your butt from the IRS because of your stupid "scientific" way of budgeting and spending and paying taxes, and your lawyer who saves your butt from the courts because of your stupid "scientific" way of obeying laws, treating your neighbors, and teaching your kids morals. Great, You're "scientific." Take a bow.
"So you denigrate the accountant who saves your butt from the IRS because of your stupid "scientific" way of budgeting and spending and paying taxes, and your lawyer who saves your butt from the courts because of your stupid "scientific" way of obeying laws, treating your neighbors, and teaching your kids morals. Great, You're "scientific." Take a bow.
February 10, 2011 7:21 PM"
"Those who despise science and learning are not anti-elitist. They are morally and intellectually slothful people who are secretly envious of the educated and the cultured."
Christopher Hitchens
"Those who despise science and learning are not anti-elitist. They are morally and intellectually slothful people who are secretly envious of the educated and the cultured."
Christopher Hitchens
February 10, 2011 9:52 PM
There is no one who "despises science" here, just scientists who despise non-scientists. As if non-scientists can't be intellectually engaged, educated, and cultured. As if condescension and arrogance are evidence of morality and culture. Pulling out that old quote just confirms your real attitude.
"February 11, 2011 10:01 AM"
Reread the 7:21pm, this person despises science. The Hitchens quote is appropriate.
February 10, 2011 9:52 PM
Well played. 7:21 PM got pwned bigtime.
"February 11, 2011 10:01 AM"
Reread the 7:21pm, this person despises science. The Hitchens quote is appropriate.
February 11, 2011 10:12 AM
As the 2/10 7:21 poster, I can assure you I do not despise science, I am a PhD physicist. I just despise scientists who are arrogant about their profession and despise other professions as lesser. Are you one of those? I depend on many professional in other, non-scientific fields to keep me out of trouble and I appreciate their professional services. You, on the other hand, have a really short fuse and a really severe lack of personal security. Too bad for you, and too bad for the reputation of our profession.
Are you still reading these posts, "Potential Hire"?
Getting a clear picture of what it is like to work at a NNSA research lab?
"February 11, 2011 9:10 PM"
I am calling BS on you. Again read the 7:21 post it is coming from someone who has a problem with science.
Look at the 7:21 post saying "of your stupid
"scientific" way" and "your stupid "scientific" way of obeying laws" give you away. I do not believe you have a Phd in physics or work LLNL. Of course I can believe what I want you can believe what you want.
Both accountants and lawyers at the Labs too often intrude their petty, inconsistent and impossible rules on otherwise competent technical personnel without a thought as to how it will affect the programmatic missions . Unfunded mandates.
"Rules are rules", they say.
"Congress said so."
"I am your surrogate mommy and I going to tell you what to do, even if I don't know what I am talking about."
These are regular outcome of working with Human Resources and, sadly, current lab management.
As the only technical person who understands the science, the mission and the rules, I choose the best path forward, not the lawyer, not the accountant. At the lab, they can watch the mission, they can inhibit the mission, but not complete it.
So in this infernal enviornment, accept the fools, accept the risks and move forward.
I will continue to provide extra support to the programs when the need the help; be they delayed, difficult or risky. The other programs that can be supported in regular hours will be. Since the rule attempting to manage my personal time is unenforcable, I will never be caught making this donation to the national interest.
It is inane that it is even spoken of.
We all pick the rules we follow, that is why the emphasis on personal responsibilty is emphasized ad nauseum.
Follow the important ones, eg, security and safety, to the letter, leading to best practices. Do the missions core technical work well. Balance the lesser rules, process, training, documentation, environment, procurement etc, with available time, resources and higher priorities.
In the same way the we would "stop work" for an unsafe work practice, we are also obligated to ignore fools and foolishness.
"... then you've got to then put in another 24 hours of your own time on the other contract..."
I do, I swear I do..... I dreamed about that other contract for three straight nights.....
This crap is not even detectable, let alone enforceable.
Nod you head to the fool addressing you, say "Yes, Mam", like you would to an addlepated schoolmarm, and go about the program's business.
Its your brain that will get work done, not a naysayer.
This should be easy so I'll repeat it..
"Please name the training class and location. No disrespect, just not believable without verification."
In the same way the we would "stop work" for an unsafe work practice, we are also obligated to ignore fools and foolishness.
February 11, 2011 10:58 PM
You are what the new corporatized management team might call a "butthead cowboy" who obviously needs more online training to correct the error of your ways, 10:58pm.
By the way, it has been made very clear to lab employees in the time & effort training that ignoring these accounting "fools" and committing what they would consider to be "accounting fraud" will quickly get you fired at the new, for-profit LLC labs.
You are what the new corporatized management team might call a "butthead cowboy"
1. Given the source of the original moniker, we wear flag officer disdain proudly. The defrocked admiral is even worse in his new position.
"ignoring these accounting "fools" and ...blah, blah, blah........" will quickly get you fired ...."
2. Nobody in business operations is that competent.
To thinkers, the world is a comedy.
To those that feel, it is a tragedy.
Walpole.
He was here during the transiton, right?
Get fired for putting in overtime?
Kafka couldn't write that sentence.
Still haven't seen the open-source reference to the training. I am beginning to doubt my sources veracity.
s/bc
" You will be fired for putting in unpaid overtime."
The workplace genius who uttered these words wins the Liar's Club, Tyler Przybylek Lifetime Achievement Award for the
stupidist utterance ever in the name of a national laboratory.
s/bc
I don't know.... Mike Cambell's NIF is on budget and on schedule is also a candidate.
As is Tyler's own immortal, " total compensation under the new contract will be substantially equivalent in the aggregate.."
Or Miller's, "... we will not have layoffs.."
Or Miller's, " ..the FY11 professional raise package is 3%..."
Or castrated rear-Admiral Nanos, original "butthead cowboys"
Or addelpated Domenici's " ..I have done more for Livermore than anyone else.."
Or Bodner's, " a private national lab will be more efficient"
Or lovely Secretary O'Leary's " I didn't know national labs didn't get cost of living increases..."
Or D'Agostino's ".. we are modernizing the complex.."
I'm liking this Walpole guy more and more.
Or Secretary of Energy Chu's "In this spirit of making sacrifices, we are asking our contractor employees, who are doing important research, operations, and environmental cleanup work, to join the federal work force pay freeze,.....EXCEPT FOR DOE CONTRACTOR SENIOR MANGERS!!"
February 13, 2011 11:12 AM
What's the point of getting all worked up about a situation you can't possibly do anything about??
What's the point of getting all worked up about a situation you can't possibly do anything about??
February 13, 2011 7:28 PM
Hey, that's just what my new Bechtel manager said to our employees at our workplace today! Must be part of the PR for the new lab morale improvement program.
Still haven't seen the open-source reference to the training. I am beginning to doubt my sources veracity.
s/bc
February 12, 2011 2:36 PM
I didn't know that you have your own sources. Clearly you are not a LANL person, otherwise you would know about Course 55699. So stop your stupid comments about " I have not seen a reference..." and go away.
What's the point of getting all worked up about a situation you can't possibly do anything about??
February 13, 2011 7:28 PM
Hey, that's just what my new Bechtel manager said to our employees at our workplace today! Must be part of the PR for the new lab morale improvement program.
February 14, 2011 10:16 AM
You didn't answer the question.
Who is this dirty little troll (7:28pm, 7:08pm, etc )?
He obviously doesn't work at the labs. We've all had online courses that clearly state the new charging rules. Of course, since the upper management at the labs regularly ignore training requirements, maybe he works in the lab executive suites?
"...Clearly you are not a LANL person, otherwise you would know about Course 55699..."
True, rather from your betters. The one that didn't piss off Domenici and bring a plague on both houses.
We have received no such training. Yet.
But certainly if DOE is stupid enough to confuse one lab, others are in the crosshairs.
Course, I won't pay it more attention than it deserves.
proudly, the new butthead cowboy
Course 55699
Don't stress about it. It is undetectable and unenforceable.
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