National Ignition Facility seeks new cash
David Perlman
San Francisco Chronicle
Tuesday, December 4, 2012
The
elusive effort to mimic the explosive violence of hydrogen bombs inside
Livermore's giant National Ignition Facility, long delayed, now faces
intense scrutiny by a dollar-conscious Congress.
The National
Nuclear Security Agency in charge of the Lawrence Livermore National
Laboratory says in a draft report to Congress that the lab's scientists
should conduct at least three more years of experiments. An estimated $5
billion or more has been spent over the past 10 years to build and run
the project called NIF, and current experiments are running at least
$450 million a year.
Congress had set the end of this year as the
deadline for "ignition," as the goal is termed. Now the nuclear
agency's report says the extension is needed for NIF scientists to
consider two very different and untried technical approaches to the
extraordinarily complex physics problems that have prevented them so far
from achieving their goal of duplicating the explosion of an H-bomb in
the lab.
Congressional experts are reviewing the report and some
are highly skeptical about its eventual success. The final report from
the nuclear security agency is expected early next week, when
congressional staff specialists will begin considering its implications
for NIF's future.
NIF's goal is still "very, very far away," said
one congressional expert who follows the technical details closely. The
expert, who asked to remain anonymous because he was not authorized to
speak publicly about the project, complained that the nuclear agency
appears to be asking Congress for a "blank check" until at least 2015.
"They're
asking us to give them a blank check ... and then we'd see where we
are," the expert said. "That worries me. They're not even close."
The
ultimate aim of NIF's nuclear weapons scientists is to understand the
obscure physics involved in thermonuclear fusion, validate related
computer codes, and thereby assure the safety and reliability of
America's aging weapons stockpile without the underground bomb tests
that are now banned by international treaty...
But after 35
experiments and more than 1,000 laser shots since NIF scientists began
three years ago, the effort has fallen short. In order to achieve
ignition, the laser beams would have to produce between three and 10
times more energy and heat than they have been able to accomplish, the
report said.
Just where the problems lie remains a mystery. A
national committee of laser experts headed by Stanford physicist Robert
L. Byer recently had high praise for the NIF laser's "robust operation"
and said it has "met and exceeded its design goals." The NIF scientists,
the committee concluded, are on a credible path toward upgrading the
laser array to reach the energies needed for ignition...
NIF
project director Ed Moses declined to comment on the report until its
final version is complete. But he said it's impossible to make
predictions about success in any field where such complex science is
involved...
In experiments so far, the laser shots fired at
target after target have yielded pressures 15o billion times Earth's
atmosphere, he said, but pressures twice as high are still needed for
ignition...
But NIF's giant laser array is now performing
spectacularly, he said, and its total output of energy and power is
"more than we need," Moses said.
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This BLOG is for LLNL present and past employees, friends of LLNL and anyone impacted by the privatization of the Lab to express their opinions and expose the waste, wrongdoing and any kind of injustice against employees and taxpayers by LLNS/DOE/NNSA.
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52 comments:
Sooo... they are already talking about upgrades to NIF.
While this appears to address the ignition goal, readers should refer to the "deuterium EOS" thread for additional pertinent information on the stockpile stewardship goals.
The lies used to support the NIF boondoggle have to stop sometime.
With the budget about to go over the fiscal cliff, might as well put NIF on the chopping block with everything else. It's more than earned a huge chop.
December 5, 2012 6:02 PM Agreed, 50% is good round number and of course this means all support groups too.
In 1905 the internal combustion engine produced 2 hp/L with a compression ration of 5:1
Today the latest Corvette produces about 125 hp/L with a 11.5:1 compression ratio.
I think advances in target configuration and tailoring the laser input pulses will be the key. And some young post-doc will someday get the Nobel Prize for solving the problem.
Nice to have the right tools in place to do the job.
High Performance Fusion Plant of the Future = Corvette
Facility Reaching Break Even = First Internal Combustion Engine
NIF in its current form = (You Fill In The Blank).
NIF in its current form = Smoke and Mirrors Machine, Part Deux
Byers is correct to praise the engineering and operational elements of the facility. Indeed, Ed Moses did a fantastic job in coordinating a very complex build.
However, Byers should be very careful about what he says about the technical merit and approaches. The quality of data and publications coming out of the facility and previous efforts using similar approaches is questionable and riddled with problems. We will see how comprehensive his due diligence is and how his findings support his conclusions and recommendations. Otherwise, the community will also be happy to correct him after his report is finalized, though that would not reflect well on him if it has to resort to this.
Interesting development for di-electric conductivity posted on phys.org. With laser stimulation you can get momentary near-superconductivity in a non-conducting material. Some new transistors at NIF might be useful.
High Performance Fusion Plant of the Future = Corvette
Facility Reaching Break Even = First Internal Combustion Engine
NIF in its current form = (You Fill In The Blank). A pipe dream that is not meeting todays need as an immediate alternative source of energy and will not for decades, or maybe even centuries to come.
As a nation we are putting our tax dollars in the wrong area. We should be concentrating on power from wind, solar, geothermal and wave plans all of which need to be plugged into a central buss and keep right on moving forward until every a single square foot of desert lands are covered with solar tracking arrays.
You want to make jobs for people for the next 100 + years, here’s your answer. Not projects like NIF or LIFE… MFE, etc
We know all we need to know about weapons and how to build them. Now its time to move on to what important to the nation and its future.
High Performance Fusion Plant of the Future = Corvette
Facility Reaching Break Even = First Internal Combustion Engine
NIF in its current form = (You Fill In The Blank). A pipe dream that is not meeting todays need as an immediate alternative source of energy and will not for decades, or maybe even centuries to come.
As a nation we are putting our tax dollars in the wrong area. We should be concentrating on power from wind, solar, geothermal and wave plans all of which need to be plugged into a central buss and keep right on moving forward until every a single square foot of desert lands are covered with solar tracking arrays.
You want to make jobs for people for the next 100 + years, here’s your answer. Not projects like NIF or LIFE… MFE, etc
We know all we need to know about weapons and how to build them. Now its time to move on to what important to the nation and its future.
Omega is a very attractive option if NNSA is going to pursue research in support of laser-based fusion. It is a comparatively inexpensive facility with regards to fixed and ongoing costs, and the feasibility for capability upgrades has been well-established. In addition, it can support many of the experiments that are relevant to NNSA's needs, while at the same time, being able to produce world-class publications in its continued role as a user-facility for the scientific community. Omega has a very long history of supporting research and development in many different areas. It is not exclusively tied to a single or few applications, and there are numerous examples of how Omega supports the scientific community very broadly.
The facetious response by December 6, 2012 3:30 PM ironically supports that next post describing Omega and it's capability. If we're so far off from ignition, then Omega is indeed the way to go, and it would not require abandoning the long-term pursuit of eventual ignition and fusion energy.
December 6, 2012 3:30 PM
I was wondering when someone was going to recognize where all the waste was, which way to turn and how to make job. No, Omega is not the answer. Enery now, using technolgies we currently have and can make improvements on is the answer.
Indeed, Omega (or any other facility) is not the answer for fusion energy. Omega is a platform for scientific research, and that mission is clearly understood.
As a nation .. We should be concentrating on power from wind, solar,..
Of course you can put your money whereever you like. I choose to buy oil and gas from North Dakota shale cause it has the lowest cost and will be available for 100 years.
As for the $ that the Obamanation takes from me for both of these purposes, my vote is the return them to me, or alternatively use the $ to reduce the national debt.
The need R&D into alternative fuels is mooted by the development of oil shale output.
Nice try throwing in "Obama" to distract our attention from the NIF scandal.
December 7, 2012 11:52 AM
My vote is to get the entire socialist democratic party abolished off the face of the earth, the US out of the UN and it's building turned into a apartment complex. Now that would be a good begining to get this country going in the right direction
We need to begin thinking about setting up colonies on the moon, and work through legal issues regarding property rights and sovereignty.
The moon is a native American colony.
Basel III (or the Third Basel Accord) is a global regulatory standard on bank capital adequacy, stress testing and market liquidity risk agreed upon by the members of the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision in 2010–11, and scheduled to be introduced from 2013 until 2018.[1][2] The third installment of the Basel Accords (see Basel I, Basel II) was developed in response to the deficiencies in financial regulation revealed by the late-2000s financial crisis. Basel III strengthens bank capital requirements and introduces new regulatory requirements on bank liquidity and bank leverage. The OECD estimates that the implementation of Basel III will decrease annual GDP growth by 0.05–0.15%.[3][4] Critics suggest that greater regulation is responsible for the slow recovery from the late-2000s financial crisis,[5][6] and that the Basel III requirements will increase the incentives of banks to game the regulatory framework, which could further negatively affect the stability of the financial system.[7]
Basel III will require banks to hold 4.5% of common equity (up from 2% in Basel II) and 6% of Tier I capital (up from 4% in Basel II) of risk-weighted assets (RWA). Basel III also introduces additional capital buffers, (i) a mandatory capital conservation buffer of 2.5% and (ii) a discretionary countercyclical buffer, which allows national regulators to require up to another 2.5% of capital during periods of high credit growth. In addition, Basel III introduces a minimum 3% leverage ratio and two required liquidity ratios. The Liquidity Coverage Ratio requires a bank to hold sufficient high-quality liquid assets to cover its total net cash outflows over 30 days; the Net Stable Funding Ratio requires the available amount of stable funding to exceed the required amount of stable funding over a one-year period of extended stress.[8]
My vote is to get the entire socialist democratic party abolished off the face of the earth, the US out of the UN and it's building turned into a apartment complex. Now that would be a good begining to get this country going in the right direction
December 7, 2012 12:42 PM
Which would be huntin n fishin, Right?
"Basel III (or the Third Basel Accord)..."
Basil! . . . Basil! . . . Basil! . . .
All Livermorons should post random stuff to prevent the truth from being discussed. Not to worry, we'll correlate your messages with your IP and publish information regarding your activities using government resources.
All Livermorons should post random stuff to prevent the truth from being discussed. Not to worry, we'll correlate your messages with your IP and publish information regarding your activities using government resources.
Yeah we'll give them a real reason to fire you when time comes for the sequestration.
Especially when people IN THE LAB are reading and posting... and lots of deceptive stuff too..... hmmmmmm
This blog should be renamed "All NIF, All the Time"!
But Why? Obama goes with everything!
Well... this thread is about NIF...
Anonymous said...
All Livermorons should post random stuff to prevent the truth from being discussed. Not to worry, we'll correlate your messages with your IP and publish information regarding your activities using government resources.
December 7, 2012 8:44 PM
I guess that's good for a 50% reduction in force at LANL and LLNL? People come here because this is where they get more information that anyone at these two facilities would ever tell the workers or for that matter the public. Personally I'm glad this blog is here and I support Scooby Doo 120% for overseeing it. It is my hopes everyone comes here and everyone has a say. I think 99% of all the people who come here know we're spending the tax dollars in the wrong places and on the wrong projects. The other 1% as just mad LLNL got more attention than LANL where one accomplished nothing and the other one basically is no longer needed. Believe me people, those in DC are going to someday wake up, funnel the money where it needs to be and both facilities are going to get hit really hard. I'm just amazed it takes then more than an eye blink to get it done regardless of the consequences. Personally I think it all about keeping people employed and getting re-elected is all they care about. Common sense is non-existent.
". . . Not to worry, we'll correlate your messages with your IP and publish information regarding your activities using government resources."
Do you normally threaten people on an anonymous Blog if the conversation does follow your thinking?
... does not follow your thinking?
Yup. Sucks to be you.
You people at the lab shouldn't be using government resources to screw around on the internet and sharing your strange content to the world on blogs anyways. You should know better. If you get in trouble for it, it's entirely your fault.
What idiots!
It is Sat. You morons!
What makes you think that all replies to this Blog are from Lab employees on Lab time?
"Yup, must Suck to be You!"
Well duh. Of course most comes out of the lab on weekdays. But not all.
The really bad offenders seem to have wisened up a few weeks ago.
Dear Scoobs,
Please retitle this thread,
Bitchiness between underinformed LANL and LLNL cheering squads
on dope
Response to 8:20 PM
You're missing the point. The stupidity is regarding the the people at the lab who do post during work hours, from government networks using government resources. This is not "hypothetical" either.
Yeah, why threaten labbies, when the stuff they post makes these blogs so much more entertaining? The propaganda is especially fun to read.
LOLZ
Well it IS common knowledge that "anonymous activity" is not at all anonymous. it's really kinda silly if people still think otherwise, unless they're sophisticated enough to use anonymizing networks and services.
Well it IS common knowledge that "anonymous activity" is not at all anonymous. it's really kinda silly if people still think otherwise, unless they're sophisticated enough to use anonymizing networks and services.
December 8, 2012 9:41 PM
Your claim is "kinda silly". Posted from a Lab computer, the public IP address is the Lab public IP address - no further info unless the Lab wants to follow up internally. Unlikely since all the cybersec people are chasing the firewall attacks that occur a million times a day.
From home, you have an ISP that presents a common IP address to the world. If you think your employer is chasing you down over the internet without probable cause for fraud or crime, you are simply paranoid.
Please continue. You clearly don't have hands on experience. But it's interesting to see how your own misperceptions shape the things you write.
Dude, just let the labbies do their thing. The more you say, the more that might get scared off, even not posting from home or from their smartphones or whatever.
You'll kill this blog's mojo if the cornball lab propaganda stops flowing! The propaganda is priceless! You can't write this kind of stuff! Don't kill off my enjoyment, please! I beg of you.
December 8, 2012 10:30 PM LLNS is lloking for any reason to fire someone. They need to clean the house and posting from work is a sure way to give them a reason to fire you. realitically they could fire almost 100% of the people if they'd just make it a point to go to each employees house and look for a pencil or pen. Kind of chickenshit but then so is the new lay-off policy soon to go into effect, but, it's their company and their $83M profit they need to keep for bonus checks for the big wigs.
This thread is dead.
Back to our meds.
When I was about 13 I toured the Shiva facility with my Physicist Uncle. My memory is that they were say in about 10 years the lasers would be at break-even on energy production. Fast forward 40 years ... and now they have given up? How many billions where spent on this stupid program? What have we learned? What is the knowledge to cost ratio. If we had spent this money on solar energy physics research ... what would we have today? Flying cars?
It neutralized your uncle and kept him from going to Wall Street and causing a crash in '76.
NNSA three stooges screw up the Lab employment contracts in 2007 and Wall St. crashes in '08.
Conincidence or rogue high speed trading?
Make LLNL reimburse the Gov for not achieving the goal with NIF. What a huge waste of taxpayers money.
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