Scientists Say Their Giant Laser Has Produced Nuclear Fusion!
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/02/12/275896094/scientists-say-their-giant-laser-has-produced-nuclear-fusion
Researchers at a laboratory in California say they've had a breakthrough in producing fusion reactions with a giant laser. The success comes after years of struggling to get the laser to work and is another step in the decades-long quest for fusion energy.
Omar Hurricane, a researcher at , says that for the first time, they've produced significant amounts of fusion by zapping a target with their laser. "We've gotten more energy out of the fusion fuel than we put into the fusion fuel," he says.
It is all over the news now!
A Star Is Born: US Scores Fusion-Power Breakthrough
Wall Street Journal - 6 hours ago
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/02/12/275896094/scientists-say-their-giant-laser-has-produced-nuclear-fusion
NIF hails fusion breakthrough
Optics.org-9 hours ago
Dr Hurricane unleashes FUSION at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Register - 4 hours ago
Scientists achieve 'turning point' in fusion energy quest
Sydney Morning Herald - 2 hours ago
Scientists achieve nuclear fusion milestone (+video)
Christian Science Monitor - 3 hours ago
Nuclear fusion breakthrough raises hopes for ultimate green energy source
The Guardian - 10 hours ago
87 comments:
An article by Science News contributor Andrew Grant was clear and accurate, without bias. It stated what was accomplished, was its significance is and how far it is from original simulations in a very clear style. I recommend it. It is easy reading.
http://www.businessinsider.com/physicists-get-closer-to-reaching-ignition-2014-2
German captive emigre, Werner Van Braun's first ten rockets exploded on the pad when his team began the US space program after WW2.
This, after successfully launching thousands of German V2 Intermediate Range Ballistic Missles into the London and Amsterdam countrysides during WW2.
In a hundred meter dash, the first step is as important as the last.
And where did the Germans get the technology from?Robert Hutchings Goddard. He did it without a lab funded from tax dollars or over paid scientist who write make believe papers to tell everyone how great they are.
POS
In a hundred meter dash, the first step is as important as the last.
February 13, 2014 at 7:46 PM
Except that this isn't a dash - it's a long, slow slog that has been barely moving for the past 40 years. Fusion energy is always "50 years away." It is time to cut the old sloggers and find someone who knows how to run. We don't need more money, we need more brains. Or maybe someone will have the guts to just quit this nonsense and find another source of cheap renewable energy that can actually power the grid 24/7.
No, it's not brains, it really is money. Lots and lots more money, still with no guarantees. The effort already has smart people, though not the right brains to be driving the bus.
"And where did the Germans get the technology from?Robert Hutchings Goddard. He did it without a lab funded from tax dollars or over paid scientist who write make believe papers to tell everyone how great they are.
POS
February 13, 2014 at 8:24 PM"
Goddard wrote numerous high profile papers and got some of his ideas from reading the papers others such as Sam Langley. He received his BS MA and Ph.d in physics, was a researcher at Princeton, than professor of physics at Clark University where he did much his work. His research was financed by the Smithsonian Institute and the US Army and in latter years by the other government agencies.
Yeah, POS doesn't bother too much with facts. Just goes deep enough to find something that fits his preconceived notions and spits it back out as if he knew it already, even if just a little more research would show how wrong he is. Sad.
Haha! LLNL showed you up, you silly Sandia Z-machine lackeys!
Victory for LLNL and NIF. Congratulations. This is indeed good progress.
Yeah we all heard Omar Hurricane on the National Public Radio (NPR) announce that the huge breakthrough was getting a puny 1% efficiency. We have a new (NIF) manager and immediately Livermore announces a MAJOR breakthrough! You gotta figure HIS HIGHNESS Brett Knapp had to be behind this as well. There you go again Livermore, overselling your product!
Perfect "timing" for Knapp's bid as Lab Director! Keep him Livermore, he's all yours!
Livermore need to come forward to the community and present the data before they declare victory! I have not forgotten Fleischmann–Pons claims of nuclear fusion. Sound familiar?
Bret Knapp is taking BIG gamble going international with this announcement without it being peered reviewed by the community. What do expect from a mediocre engineer who can't spell fusion.
It's been reviewed and published, and I don't think there is any question that they are getting self-heating. The issue is, how they are spinning it. Granted, it's the media that's doing most of the spinning, but it still leaves the average person with the (totally dead wrong) idea that they created a "miniature star" like they claimed they would do 5 years ago. They are orders of magnitude shy of that goal with no known way to get there and lots of data that says it's really, really hard.
It's published in Nature, a premier peer-reviewed journal. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13008.html
After Smithsonian and University support waned for Goddard. He got tons of funding from Daniel Guggenheim agreed to fund his research for a total of $100,000 (~$1.7 million today). The Guggenheim family, especially Harry Guggenheim, would continue to support Goddard's work in the years to come.
The Guggenheim's got their money from being textile merchants, mining and steel industrialists. All of these use the Commons heavily, so in essence the use of public systems and resources by a powerful rich family was passed on to Goddard. The point is even private funding often can be traced back to an unfair taking of public wealth.
So ease up on the whole LLNL is a public funds drain. They could be managed WAY better though!
Did anyone bother to read Grant's summary?
http://www.businessinsider.com/physicists-get-closer-to-reaching-ignition-2014-2
balanced and short.
No grist for the mill, except by deliberate misinterpretation.
Read it.
"..announced that the huge breakthrough..."
This assertion is not factual, NIF scientists announced an important advance along the expected path, 15 kJ of fusion neutrons.
A breakthru is an advance that that leads to unexpected improvements. This result does not, nor was it presented that way.
Only a counterfactual detractor can misconstrue this carefully crafted, balanced announcement of progress to date into "it is not a breakthrough, this announcement misleads us."
Spin, spin, spin...
That's why I chose to earn a living in engineering. Few people, good people, objective goals and methods, and the blessed isolation from the shortcomings of most obnoxious people.
J. D. Salinger got this part right.
To the February 14, 2014 at 11:16 AM poster. Try again
"Few people,"
There are more than 100000 bachelors degrees given out in engineering degrees every year, there are only about 5000 bachelors degrees given out in physics every year/
"good people"
There are many good people in engineering just as there are many good people in science.
" objective goals and methods,"
Science also has objective goals and methods. For example the scientific method.
"and the blessed isolation from the shortcomings of most obnoxious people."
Engineering projects are commonly done in large teams much more so than in science. Every field can have a portion of obnoxious people and engineering is no different..
"J. D. Salinger got this part right."
On the contrary J.D. Salinger was actually a very sociable person.
Let's put this "breakthrough" in perspective. After 30 or 40 years, and more than $10 billion spent, Livermore is 1% of the way to the first, most basic milestone necessary for laser fusion power plants. Sounds like NIF is still nothing but a giant turd that some advertise as smelling like a rose. As a taxpayer, I say, no thanks; keep your rose garden.
LLNL beats Sandia once again!
NIF: 1
Z-machine: 0
LLNL wins!
LLNL wins!
February 14, 2014 at 5:17 PM
Yeah, wins the obfuscation and deceit award. Make sure that when the media spins this all out of proportion and beyond all logic and science, that you don't, at all costs, correct them. There are no winners among the despicable collusion to deceive the public that has just occurred, least of all the public.
Hey, at least LLNL has *something* to report to the media about!
The last thing that was reported by Sandia was the chili cookoff!...which was a total dud.
http://llnlthetruestory.blogspot.com/2013/06/what-waste.html
February 13, 2014 at 7:39 PM
You are correct. The article is an excellent report. Before anyone comments further, he/she should read it.
"You are correct. The article is an excellent report. Before anyone comments further, he/she should read it.
February 14, 2014 at 9:19 PM"
Read it, humanity is closer than ever to limitless energy! Sandia is way behind and will never catch up so they should fire everyone single person at Sandia and make sure they never work again. Give the money that went to Sandia to boost the salaries of the LLNL NIF guys so they can party like it is 1999 as the new age of fusion dawns. The champagne corks are a popping and the third stone Earth rejoices!!! NIF Uber Alles!!!
Look we all agree perception is reality. The media now rules and we all agree on how the game is played. If the media says NIF was a huge success than to DC it is a HUGE SUCCESS. This is the reality like it or not. I say we go with some good news for a change. It is progress and worthy of celebration. Hopefully more is to come.
The new NIF results make Sandia's Z-machine look like a skidmark on the underpants of engineering.
The alpha heating may be small right now but it is not minuscule. That alpha heating NIF is able to achieve right now goes a very long way towards justifying its continued development. It is correctly described as a success and a milestone. Keep beating on Ed's legacy if you need to. But he is no longer in the picture and complaining about him and the past is tiring. NIF is making credible strives and advancements in science. Congratulations!
Look we all agree perception is reality.
February 14, 2014 at 10:36 PM
Uh, guess I missed the vote. Actually, *accurate* perception is reality.
Same idea as not all "practice makes perfect," just correct practice.
How about BS to gain funding.. Smoke and Mirrors. Do it day in and day out and maybe someone will believe you. Once doesn't count for shit.
Scientifically, I can't agree that alpha heating in a non-ignitable target design justifies continued development. It is not a surprise, and not a breakthrough of any kind. A milestone, yes, worth publishing and publicizing, yes, but the costs of continued development are enormous. And they are still talking about ridiculous tangents like soccer-ball hohlraums and magnetized fusion that don't address the reasons why they can't get the same yields with a low-adiabat ignitable target design.
All these negative comments tell me one thing : the Sandians are getting nervous. For over a decade they have had a seething hatred for all things NIF and the surprising thing is that they still carry a grudge to this day. The kind of schadensfreude is really pathetic. All of this driven by your their insecurities about their place in the weapons complex. Really sad. I read their comments and I have to shake my head. They can't pay attention to their own problems. They always need to be judging others. They always have that chip on their shoulder. Really sad.
In the past, NIF's inability to stay on budget, and pay their fair share of overhead costs hurt everyone else.
A reality check. Several high level supporters of inertial fusion in NNSS are gone, including the previous head of NNSA. LIFE is terminated. A major reorganization of the whole directorate at LLNL is in place with a switch away from fusion energy. The old leadership has been eliminated, including the previous lab director, groups have been eliminated and shuffled. Until all this is reversed, all the recent "progress" is irrelevent BS. For my opinion on the "progress" note the quotes.
All these negative comments tell me one thing : the Sandians are getting nervous...I read their comments and I have to shake my head. They can't pay attention to their own problems. They always need to be judging others. They always have that chip on their shoulder. Really sad.
February 15, 2014 at 11:29 AM
Since the posts are anonymous, you must be absolutely convinced that no one from inside LLNL holds any strong negative feelings about NIF. You are wrong.
Some inside NIF hold strong negative feelings about NIF, at least about where past and some present management have driven it.
Alpha heating just based on laser driven inertial compression DOES justify continued development. Sure maybe their target design will have to evolve. Why would you assume that it wouldn't?
LLNL people who don't like NIF but rave on and on about how good Z is despite it not being a best in class facility? I think those folks are Sandians.
The Livermorons who hate NIF are the code-jockeys who don't like experiments that test the validity of their modelling. They just like to run code day in and day out as it makes them look busy. The test ban treaty was the best thing for them because they can run simulation to their heart's content and just create more questions rather than solving them. Experimental observations are the enemy of the small minded and the weak of intellect.
Anonymous said...
The Livermorons who hate NIF are the code-jockeys who don't like experiments that test the validity of their modelling. They just like to run code day in and day out as it makes them look busy. The test ban treaty was the best thing for them because they can run simulation to their heart's content and just create more questions rather than solving them.
February 15, 2014 at 2:55 PM
If what you are telling us is true, then science as a discipline is dead at Livermore.
LLNL people who don't like NIF but rave on and on about how good Z is despite it not being a best in class facility? I think those folks are Sandians.
February 15, 2014 at 2:24 PM
Definitely! Both Sandia Livermore and Sandia Albuquerque are out-of-date, out-of-place and totally irrelevant now!
Sandia Livermore is especially irrelevant since it's so small and NNSA already disbanded the Science Centers at Livermore too in 2008!
"For NIF to succeed the rest of LLNL has to fail, if NIF fails the rest of LLNL has to fail with it." Whatever NIF has or has or has not achieved the cost has devastated science at LLNL, particularly in physics. I've lost count of the number of Newslines touting the accomplishments of LLNL scientist who have left LLNL.
Lets stick to the real point. This is and always has been about Sandia. NIF was made to beat Sandia and that is what it is doing. Sandia has always been the problem child of NNSA complex and everyone knows it. All Sandia has is Z... and that is it. If NIF can kill Z than Sandia dies that would be a major achievement well worth every penny of NIF. The only people that have ever attacked NIF are the Sandians since they know that if NIF succeeds they are going to finally close Sandia once and for all. By the way it is true that code monkeys hate experiment all theorists and computational people hate experiments. Sandia is filled with these types. The theory hating experiment has gone back to the days of Newton. Experiment is science while theory is ego pushing. Name one thing a theorist or a computational person ever did that actually advanced science......crickets. Ya I thought so. Thank God I went into engineering, I never have to interact with anyone ever and work with the few and the good and I never have use a code or listen to some theorist.
February 15, 2014 at 8:48 PM said..
"Thank God I went into engineering, I never have to interact with anyone ever"
Well that sounds very pleasant.
All the Sandia-hating Livermites are beginning to sound a little sick here. The object is to "beat Z"? How about expanding scientific knowledge with both machines in their optimum realms? Too reasonable for all you dispassionate, logical scientists? Sheesh!
I have mentioned before on this blog the level of hate I see from LLNL toward Sandia. One person responded that it was only one person with those feelings. I think the above shows that is certainly incorrect. I may want to refine this in that there may also be very harsh feelings within the NIF community toward the weapons community (code-jockeys). I guess I still see only one main source for this and it is fear.
Could still be just one Sandia-hating person. And the NIF community *is* the weapons community now, there's really not much else except techs and instrument-jockeys.
Well, it seems then that LLNL is NIF and NIF is LLNL. So the choice is to keep NIF going or close LLNL down.
I have my theory on a few of the posters. Of course it could be pure nonsense but would explain alot.
(1) There is is one person from LLNL who was fired or forced out and now hates every single human being earth.
(2) There is one person who is engineer who actually really wanted to be scientist but it did not happen so he hates all scientists.
(3) There is one person who wanted to be scientist or an engineer but flunked out of college and now hates anyone with a college degree. This person still thinks they are some kind great unrecognized genius. Everyone else knows to him as the creepy tech guy that everyone tries to avoid.
(4) There is some EOS guy who has some personal bone to pick with EOS. He may actually have a point?
(5) There is they guy who lost his girlfriend to someone who works on the Z-machine at Sandia so he is kinda bitter about that.
(6) There is the free market anti government guy who worked in the military for first part of career now works for the lab for the second part. The irony is driving him insane.
(7) There is some guy who is the poorest performer in his group and knows that when the budget gets tight he is gone. He thinks if they just have less of the overhead going to NIF that they will have plenty of money to keep the poor performers like himself on the payroll.
(8) There is some guy who likes to think he is rich and powerful but he is just pissed that he was let go before he could get that great pension. He is hoping all the younger people get screwed over just like him.
(9) There are some people with legitimate points.
Surely it's not about an SNL hatred of LLNL or vice versa? Please reassure us that SNL and LLNL have been populated by dedicated engineers and scientists working in the service of the country for 50+ years.
@February 15, 2014 at 10:24 PM
I think that's got to be close.
Good work.
Sandia's Z-machine seems totally irrelevant now...
Code-jockeys are a problem for all labs that don't integrate them into experimental work. NIF is generating vital experimental observations to keep these code jockeys in check. It's about time. Experimental data and evidence is king in the enterprise. The whole premise of stockpile stewardship centered around supercomputing was flawed to begin with.
WCI is code-monkey central.
The discovery of a new high pressure phase in Ta on NIF is as scientifically noteworthy (is not more so) as getting 14 kJ, I would have thought that they would push the Ta result as the "money-shot" for all the PR and hype.
Stockpile stewardship based on computers is probably fine, if you restrict stockpile stewardship to its literal meaning and you don't mind if the stewards are zombie-drones. Stopping some alphas in a DT plasma is not a mystery, phase changes in tantalum are irrelevant, ICF is irrelevant, etc. You only need new experiments and new data if you want to keep those stewards sharp and possibly capable of designing new weapons in the future. But those new experiments could happen more easily and far more cheaply at Z or at any of a number of other smaller facilities, especially if you want to directly address stockpile issues related to aging etc.
"Surely it's not about an SNL hatred of LLNL or vice versa? Please reassure us that SNL and LLNL have been populated by dedicated engineers and scientists working in the service of the country for 50+ years.
February 15, 2014 at 10:40 PM"
Yes all the labs are populated by dedicated engineers and scientists. This is a blog and like all blogs it gets comments from the tail of the distribution in terms are nuttiness and ignorance. I think you should know this by now. Blogs are fine and even fun and sometimes they are some insightful comments.
In the LLNL-true story blog the real value is that the moderator puts information on the blog that can be useful, so it is a very good information source. The comments are mostly worthless. Do you ever read news blog comments? Same thing. Bush sucks, Obama sucks, you suck, Star Wars is better than Star Trek, personal vendettas, a place for the insane and looney to talk. This is all fine and well but take the comments for it for exactly what they are.
Scooby deleted at least two posts here for no apparent reason (again).
see also: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/13/science/giant-laser-complex-makes-fusion-advance.html?hp&_r=0
LLNL is back in the saddle again!
How many billions of dollars spent and how many true national security needs ignored at the lab to get to 1% of breakeven?
At least it's a good warm up for the high-speed rail to Bakersfield.
".. and the blessed isolation from the shortcomings of most obnoxious people..."
Sign me up.
"February 15, 2014 at 8:48 PM said..
"Thank God I went into engineering, I never have to interact with anyone ever"
Well that sounds very pleasant.
February 15, 2014 at 9:24 PM"
Read the original quote correctly and you will get your facts straight. Your life will get better with better reading habits
As far as I can tell, February 15, 2014 at 9:24 PM quoted February 15, 2014 at 8:48 PM exactly, leaving off the phrase "and work with the few and the good and I never have use a code or listen to some theorist," which does not modify the meaning of the first phrase. Facts are facts.
ver·ba·tim (vər-bā′tĭm) adj. Using exactly the same words; corresponding word for word.
No one requires that any commenter use verbatim quotes, i.e., quoting the entire previous post, or even complete sentences from the previous post, before commenting. One can always go back to the post in question. It is always every commenter's responsibility not to misquote or to mislead by omission, but this is not a monitored blog. If you are sloppy in the wording of your post or leave your comment open to easy misinterpretation, it is your responsibility.
Verbatim from the post on February 14, 2014 at 7:17 PM
" Timothy Shepodd (8223) liked the moniker and agreed to call it the “chili cookoff.” But there was no chili involved, and the only “cooking” had to do with the kind of chemicals not usually found on Sandia grounds. "
"Thank God I went into engineering, I never have to interact with anyone ever and work with the few and the good and I never have use a code or listen to some theorist.
February 15, 2014 at 8:48 PM"
I am the original poster, so let me clarify this post for all to know. I have my daily prayer, others have their own. For example a well known one is.
""Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a Gentile."
"Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a slave."
Blessed are you, Hashem, King of the Universe, for not having made me a woman.""
I am of of a different faith but I do interact with others and it is indeed pleasant. My daily prayer is thus, and so should be to everyone.
"Thank you God for not having made me a scientist."
"Thanks you God for not having made me a intellectual."
"Thank you God for betrothing me the the gift of denial"
Hear these words and heed them... they will serve well. If more had followed we would not have had NIF.
This is a blog and what is spoken anonymously on blogs is sacred truth for all time. Everyone at LLNL knows this. So let it be blogged, so let it be done.
"Thank you God for betrothing me the the gift of denial"
February 17, 2014 at 9:31 PM
It's not a gift; it's a curse. Unless you enjoy having such a tenuous grip on reality.
Congratulations to the LLNL team!
14kJ from 1800 kJ.
Let's see... 1800kJ is a jelly donut and 14kJ is an old man's brief, labored intercourse.
Hey. I am on the foreskin of science.
Hey maybe they also created ripples in the Higgs field with those 14kJ. Or temporarily created a warp field. Zephram Cochrane would be proud.
Keep beating on Ed's legacy if you need to. But he is no longer in the picture and complaining about him and the past is tiring.
February 15, 2014 at 3:03 AM
He's still there, by way of the people he appointed and put in their management positions, people who are still there and as incompetent as ever. It would take focused effort and time to purge NIF of those people, and until then they are his legacy.
"He's still there, by way of the people he appointed and put in their management positions, people who are still there and as incompetent as ever. It would take focused effort and time to purge NIF of those people, and until then they are his legacy.
February 25, 2014 at 7:25 AM"
Yes he is still here, and in case you had not noticed the Nature paper that came but NIF ate all you naysayers lunch. NIF worked as exactly as it was intended.
NIF worked as exactly as it was intended.
February 25, 2014 at 8:35 PM
Well, I guess that means that NIF was a very expensive boondoggle that was never "intended" to accomplish much.
NIF was built with huge fanfare and vast piles of taxpayer money, to ignite and burn a capsule and hit 20 megajoules. It got 14 kilojoules, and by my calculator that is three orders of magnitude off "working as intended". What was your point, then? They wrote a paper on how wonderful it is to be 3 orders of magnitude off?
"NIF was built with huge fanfare and vast piles of taxpayer money, to ignite and burn a capsule and hit 20 megajoules. It got 14 kilojoules, and by my calculator that is three orders of magnitude off "working as intended". What was your point, then? They wrote a paper on how wonderful it is to be 3 orders of magnitude off?
February 25, 2014 at 10:06 PM"
Bitter much? Has it ever occurred to you that your problems at the lab have more to do with your low performance rather than NIF? Is your thinking that along lines of this by any chance? "If NIF was gone than they would have plenty of money to keep mediocre people like me." Well guess what if NIF was not around you would be exactly in the same boat. Fess up tell us the real reason you hate NIF so much.
Fess up tell us the real reason you hate NIF so much.
February 26, 2014 at 7:11 AM
Amateur psychoanalysis is quite amusing. Maybe the "real" reason is just what he said. And just so you know (and I know this goes against everything you've been brainwashed to believe), disputing an issue does NOT equate to "hate."
February 26, 2014 at 7:11 AM obviously has unresolved anger issues rooted in childhood teasing and bullying. He is probably also very short. And maybe I am his boss, so he should be more careful.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." - Freud (or not).
" "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." - Freud (or not).
February 26, 2014 at 9:19 PM"
Sometimes a bitter ex lab employee who was fired because they where totally incompetent is just a vile bitter POS who hates the world and thinks the world owes the something. (or not) or is.
...and thinks the world owes the something. (or not) or is.
February 26, 2014 at 9:57 PM
Geez - more amateur psychoanalysis. And drunk to boot. Or maybe just really, really, grammatically challenged.
9:57 PM probably does not have a Ph.D., either.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." - Freud (or not).
February 26, 2014 at 9:19 PM
"Monica loved cigars." Bill Clinton
Only a Livermoron could call 14kJ out , from 1.4MJ in, a "success". Then again, that's what they get paid to do out there. I will admit that NIF is an impressive facility. Gold plated? Yes. Useless? Mostly. Made to impress Congressional visitors, critics, and pundits alike? You bet. Something to be proud of? Hardly.
The truth will never be well-received by NIF supporters. I wonder if anyone supports NIF who isn't dependent on NIF for his/her livelihood, directly or indirectly?
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