Ok, just asking for a friend, but can the labs discipline you or fire you if you took part in the Trump rally on Wed in DC? I mean that if the person just attend but did break in the capital building or anything? Could or should you at least lose your clearance? Also what if you expressed support for the rally. Maybe the labs need to start looking into what their employees have been saying on facebook, twitter, ect. One thing is that Congress could say, "unless you clean up your workforce we are not giving you any money."
37 comments:
The rhetoric is getting crazy.
It used to be that membership in a subversive organization was cause for denial of clearance. That would be any organization advocating storming the US Capitol building in order to impose their will on congress by force. Not sure whether it is cause for revocation of clearance in these politically correct days, but I am sure that ample evidence of intent abounds on the internet.
If you’re in an at-will position, then you can be fired for any reason other than certain discriminatory reasons as defined in law.
Back in the day, UC employees had a “vested property interest” in their positions under California state law (including, oddly, LANL). Because we were employees of the State of California. That meant you had to be fired for cause (which could include funding reductions). Those days are gone.
Battelle has an aggressive posture on “trimming the org chart.” The Battelle motto is “You row in the direction we are going or you have to swim. And we shoot swimmers.”
Yes, yes, and yes. You are an at-will employee. And yes participation in the invasion of he Capitol has been declared by the DC Federal Prosecutor "criminal," i.e., a Federal crime. That certainly loses you your clearance.
Yes, yes, and yes. You are an at-will employee. And yes participation in the invasion of he Capitol has been declared by the DC Federal Prosecutor "criminal," i.e., a Federal crime. That certainly loses you your clearance.
1/10/2021 5:07 PM
I certainly agree that if you broke into the capital or where trying to break into the capital that you should be punished and certainly lose your clearance. The issue is that there was 500k people there and maybe about a 100 got in, I am not sure how many people where trying to get in but maybe thousand at most. So what about the 498k people that just attended the rally? Of better yet if you attend any Trump rally?
I can only hope these seditious un-american rioters get fired.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/employers-rights-fire-capitol-hill-trump-supporters-123151656.html
Show up at a right or left wing political protest rally and listen to nut jobs spout out delusional vile distortions of the truth - No.
Show up at the US Capital Building wearing tactical gear and carrying plastic handcuff restraining bands to be used to take members of the US Congress hostage - Yes.
Force your way into the US Capital Building injuring police officers and damaging federal property - Yes.
Help turn the US Capital Building into a scene that looks like a replay of the 1979 Iranian student takeover of the US Embassy in Tehran - YES.
If a Lab employee's actions lead to or contributed to this image of the US House of Representatives... then definitely they should be fired by LLNS or Triad...
https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1699582/capitol-breached-armed-standoff.jpg
"I can only hope these seditious un-american rioters get fired. "
Sounds good but would this also apply to people who attend a BLM riot?
From reading the article it sounds like if you attend the rally but did nothing illegal then you are safe if you live in California so anyone from LLNL who attended are fine. Again the issue is not if you can get fired if you committed a crime, that has always been clear. The issue is if you can get fired if you simply attended a political rally. From the article it sounds like you can in certain states. If that is the policy then fine the problem is if it is applied constantly. So if you attend or have ever attend a Trump rally you could fired but if you attend or have ever attend a BLM rally you are safe? You see the danger in all this don't you? Apparently some house members are drafting up a bill to make all Trump rallies denoted "Domestic terror events". https://news.yahoo.com/senator-durbin-plans-reintroduce-domestic-224539144.html If such bill is passed it would imply that up 30 million are more people have attended a domestic terror event in the past year? Of course would such laws be applied to Antifa or BLM riots, probably not.
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1/11/2021 7:31 AM
That sounds correct, but the worry is the first point.
"Show up at a right or left wing political protest rally and listen to nut jobs spout out delusional vile distortions of the truth - No."
turns into a yes.
" If a Lab employee's actions lead to or contributed to this image of the US House of Representatives... then definitely they should be fired by LLNS or Triad...
https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1699582/capitol-breached-armed-standoff.jpg
1/11/2021 7:43 AM"
Well the people that actual stormed the building yes. I would also presume they will be charged with crime.
But could I say someone who just attend the rally but did not storm the building be considered to have contributed to that image? You have to define what exactly do you mean by contributed to that image.
Again the issue is not if you can get fired if you committed a crime, that has always been clear.
Incorrect. If you torched a local business or attacked a federal building in Portland last summer, you'll be ok. If you need help understanding any of this, just go read the latter half of Animal Farm. Some animals are more equal than others.
But could I say someone who just attend the rally but did not storm the building be considered to have contributed to that image? You have to define what exactly do you mean by contributed to that image.
1/11/2021 4:05 PM
The rally was near the White House.... the mob left there and marched to the Capital, some with the intent (and equipment) to storm and murder members of the US Congress.
Any Lab employee shown to be within the restricted perimeter of the Capital during this failed coup should be fired. If Lab Security came to me with clear evidence that one of my employees was part of this coup, I'd immediately have them escorted out of the Lab by ProForce and I'd be on the phone with SHRM beginning termination of them. End of discussion.
1/11/2021 8:06 AM
If last summer BLM protesters had attacked the US Capital and breeched its doors, how do you thing that would have ended for the rioters of color... how many would have been shot dead in the hallways by federal law enforcement defending the Capital. I can easily see Fox News ranting and calling for the summary execution of AOC, Barbara Lee, and other "complicit" democratic members of Congress.
1/11/2021 8:21 PM
I completely agree with your assessment and hope it applied to anyone violating the law during a riot. That is not my concern. My concern is if someone attend the rally and was not within the restricted space what would about that case. By the way this was about 95% of the people.
Does anyone remember a more specific wording pertaining to support or participation in the attempt to overthrow the US Government that might disqualify or raise a red flag for someone from getting a clearance?
1/11/2021 8:21 PM, you’re the sort of supervisor employment lawyers love, because there’s big settlements in rash decisions. If someone was there, and not prosecuted or prosecuted and found not guilty, you’ve just cost the lab millions.
On the clearance issues, that’s not the lab’s call — the feds make that decision.
I’ve seen instances where the employee was guilty as sin but until the verdict was entered into the court record, there was literally no way to end their employment legally and not be at risk of a civil judgement.
1/12/2021 10:10 AM
Try this:
https://news.clearancejobs.com/2011/01/19/allegiance-to-the-united-states-and-security-clearances/
Pretty damning.
Pretty damning.
1/12/2021 5:33 PM
That is pretty clear, but I wonder if someone was caught on film in a riot and chanting "No Trump, No Wall, No USA at all!!"" would that qualify? If such a person ever lost their clearance for such a thing I am sure the media would be all over it saying how horrible that such a person lost their clearance ect. Maybe I am missing something but I see a lot of double standards out there.
The "media" is not going to know when anyone loses his clearance. And if they did, no one would care.
"The "media" is not going to know when anyone loses his clearance. And if they did, no one would care.
1/13/2021 5:53 PM"
Sure they would, all the person has to do is send email to the local paper saying they lost their clearance because they where in a BLM riot and it snowball from there. I could just hear NPR now "How is it that we are punishing people who are fighting for democracy and justice, who are also serving our nation, it is paradox that we punish those trying to make the nation better who are the ones that serve the nation." The person could sue and it goes to an activist judge they would win the case. Again I have no problem with charging people attacking government buildings but it has to be consistent.
"at will" has nothing to do with this issue. Sedition is a federal crime. Found guilty, never again a security clearance. Try finding a meaningful technical job with that blackmark on your record!
Try finding a meaningful technical job with that blackmark on your record!
1/14/2021 5:28 PM
I don't think it is a technical job but Angela Davis is now a full professor. Sedition apparently is a moving target and depends on which side of the political fence you sit.
By the way capital building attack about 150 people got in of which half of those claim they where journalists which they have a point. If you have ever watched any of the recent riots by the left or right for every rioter you have someone with a camera live streaming.
I would guess you also have at the very most 700-500 people just outside of the building throwing stuff or who attacking people. They may arrest about 100 people when the whole thing is done. So you have at the very most 700 people who you could claim "sedition" I think the real number is much lower, so I doubt we have any working NNSA people in this bunch.
Again I am not saying it was not serious and it certainly makes the US look pretty bad but I also do no think saying it was a coup attempt is accurate either. I have seen no evidence that it was planned out with clear agenda for a takeover and course of action like a traditional coup, it is almost like a riot that got out of hand. Of course it could have been a lot worse. My guess is that if there was a more well organized coup attempt by the crowd that the security would have been way more heavy handed with fire power if you know what I mean. The fact that security did not take these guys all that seriously kind of says something as well. Do you think the guy in the viking hat was really trying to lead coup or was he just a total idiot?
FBI reports that there is significant evidence that some intended to "arrest and assassinate" Congress members. That's a coup.
FBI reports that there is significant evidence that some intended to "arrest and assassinate" Congress members. That's a coup.
1/15/2021 5:38 PM
The DOJ says this is not the case.
This is from Friday
https://www.khou.com/article/news/nation-world/doj-filing-strong-evidence-rioters-wanted-to-capture-and-assassinate-lawmakers/507-af2c9431-ff91-469e-a108-c3469d7b0078
NATION WORLD
DOJ walks back claim Capitol rioters wanted to 'capture and assassinate' lawmakers
The Justice official in charge of the investigation said Friday there's no 'direct evidence' US Capitol rioters wanted to 'capture and assassinate' lawmaker
Normalize riots and violence all summer and you are surprised by what happened in DC? I see this a little different. I see this as a NIMBY issue for the people that control Washington DC. They don't mind it if it works in their favor (See BLM riots, See Inauguration Riots in 2017, etc.). Yes you can be fired from the lab if you are convicted of a felony but how is that news. Sad time for us all.
1/16/2021 9:37 PM
Excellent point.
Yes you can be fired from the lab if you are convicted of a felony but how is that news. Sad time for us all.
1/16/2021 9:37 PM
A private company (e.g., Triad for LANL) can fire you at any time for any reason, including you were identified on video illegally entering the Capitol on Jan. 6, prosecuted and convicted or not. Most of those idiots will be convicted by their own videos of their exploits.
The Justice official in charge of the investigation said Friday there's no 'direct evidence' US Capitol rioters wanted to 'capture and assassinate' lawmaker
1/16/2021 12:53 AM
Well, that changed today with the reports on the organizing done by "Oath Keepers." FBI is reporting that they intended to trap lawmakers in the tunnels under the Capitol and "turn on the gas." Being charged with conspiracy.
1/19/2021 5:27 PM
I actually read the reports and it sounds like three guys, and from reading it does not sound like some organized plan ahead of time operation but something they where saying to themselves during the riot. Think about it, "turn on the gas", how on earth would they even do such a thing, it sounds like just some stupid thing to say to sound scary to their buddies. Sure pretty bad but 3 people do not make a coup. This does not show that the whole riot was some organized planned event to take over the capital building and stage a coup. Even among the few hundred people that got in the capital building it looks like fair number did not cause any damage or violence but where sort of just wandering around and talking with police. There is also plenty of videos of people in rally/riot telling police that they need to send reinforcements showing that many in the crowd did not want anything what happened. You get plenty of videos showing the worse of the worse but not the rest. This of course goes also with some of the videos that came out of the BLM movement.
As Bill Maher said do not equate a few thousand people with 75 million. The average Trump supporter is not part of a coup and does not support violence. The same can be said about the left, but on the whole if you look at the amount of violence and damage over the last years it would seem the far left is more violent. I am pretty sure that the average Biden voter was not trying to burn down federal buildings.
I wouldn’t worry about getting fired for supporting Trump. The main thing that will get you the axe at NNSA is getting work done. The paper pushers and bean counters make sure that red tape remains priority número uno.
"I wouldn’t worry about getting fired for supporting Trump. The main thing that will get you the axe at NNSA is getting work done. The paper pushers and bean counters make sure that red tape remains priority número uno.
1/20/2021 8:52 PM"
A real question is if they will go after people who say read Q-Anon boards, Alex Jones, watch Tucker Carlson and so on. Do you really want people in the military or the labs that are not loyal to American or the new president. Domestic terrorism is now the new threat to us all.
A real question is if they will go after people who say read Q-Anon boards, Alex Jones, watch Tucker Carlson and so on. Do you really want people in the military or the labs that are not loyal to American or the new president. Domestic terrorism is now the new threat to us all.
1/21/2021 12:45 PM
This is a good point. I know some people will scream "freedom of speech", but there are limits of freedom of speech, and in the new internet age we really need to think about if freedom of speech is such a good idea. We have seen the results of freedom of speech and maybe it is time to seriously think about limitations. I doubt the founding fathers could have anticipated 4Chan, twitter, Fox news, Facebook, Fake news or all the crazies. Maybe freedom of speech should be something that is earned, once you show that you can act with responsibility.
1/22/2021 12:49 PM
You should read the constitution. You should avoid thinking that you can punish people for what they think, but do not act on. They can come for you too, if that is the standard. Be very careful about whose rights you want to take away. Stop being so fearful, and start acting like you are a citizen of "the land of he free and the home of the brave."
"You should read the constitution. You should avoid thinking that you can punish people for what they think, but do not act on. They can come for you too, if that is the standard. Be very careful about whose rights you want to take away. Stop being so fearful, and start acting like you are a citizen of "the land of he free and the home of the brave."
1/22/2021 5:45 PM"
First of the "the land of he free and the home of the brave" is a rather toxic phrase and reeks of privilege. The United States has never been the land of the free with slavery, racism and lack of woman rights, and new keeping millions of people in near slave conditions with migrant workers. This is hardly brave. It is easy to say "stop being fearful" if you lived a life of unearned privilege. You do not have to worry about shot by the police for no reason, having your opinions dismissed because of who you are, being bullied, denied loans, or have you very existence in doubt. I think if you experienced any of these things you would be singing a different tune.
Now with that said I understand you point about how people think is not the same as actions but but thinking leads to actions. I do not advocate punishing people for how they think but making sure that the the information they get is accurate. News sources need to be checked for accuracy, and if they do not pass they need to be shut down or labeled fiction. The United States is a very different country now than it was 200 years ago, l the constitution can be changed. If you look at much of Western Europe you will find that they have much stricter rules on freedom of speech and in many ways are much safer and advanced than the US, at they same time they are not doing the mass roundups you fear so much. In many ways I say that you are being so "fearful" of progress or that somehow making the place more safe and sane is domino effect into totalitarianism which if you look at Europe today it is clearly not.
So you support thought police and state media to make sure everyone gets the "truth." That isn't "progress," it is regression to the 1930s in Nazi Germany and the rise of Stalin in Russia. I am not fearful; I fear for you when you realize the system you create can and will be used against you. The Constitution is your friend. Luckily, your kind can never get the votes to change it.
"That isn't "progress," it is regression to the 1930s in Nazi Germany and the rise of Stalin in Russia. I am not fearful; I fear for you when you realize the system you create can and will be used against you. The Constitution is your friend. Luckily, your kind can never get the votes to change it."
Excuse me but if you want to go down the Nazi Germany road than look no further than the last four years, Arnold Schwarzenegger had a very powerful video about the insurrection of Jan 6th was exactly like krystal nicht. Maybe if there had been some rational rules for media and speech in Germany than the Nazis would not have taken over. We need to reign in media, alternate media, and social media before we have a repeat of Germany.
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