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Thursday, May 30, 2013
Downside of having a Union at LLNS.
J-Dog said...
This is the downside of having a Union at LLNS. If you do not like LLNS management (I do) then this is the other side of the coin.
If you think the point is "mute" then if you bring it up it is no longer "mute." Perhaps you meant "moot"? Aggressive and disingenuous ignorance is not something to be proud of.
Did you think your grammar school teachers were Nazis? Insistence on correct writing is every bit as valid a view as insistence on the right to be sloppy about it.
Dear people who do not appreciate the presence of SPSE at the LLNL.
I agree to disagree with your opinion for I strongly recommend the SPSE at the LLNL.
The SPSE has saved the necks of a number of employees at the Lab over the span of many years, mine included.
Without the help of SPSE, namely, the dedication of its representatives to LLNL's employees, my head would have been rolled a long, long time ago.
While disagreeing with your opposing view, I request your "civilized" language in criticizing the SPSE. Unless you can cite any specific example where the SPSE "deserves" to be called "name."
Unions are not necessary if management tells the truth and upholds promises over time. If they do no abuse employees, and when layoffs come they have above board processes without favortism. If the do otherwise they probalby will be sued and lose in court repeatedly. oooops, LLNL is in trouble. hmmmm Maybe a union will protect the Government's money from lawsuits, and employees from abuse! hmmm
Oh J-Dog must be in the population of non-exempts that are unionized, i.e., non-scientist/engineer. In that case, yes it makes sense that he complains about the union that is there to protect him.
The lab should be hiring non-union employees at lower salary scales. Yeah the unions have power and are driving up labor costs above market rates. The lab should be allowed to hire non-union people to lower labor costs to free up more resources for the NIF experiments.
The lab can benefit greatly by paying market rate salaries and fewer benefits to non-union workers. Would be a win-win for the lab and for employees who hate the fact that they get above-market salaries.
Jdog Please do not make these grandiose assumptions: I think the point is that we can all agree that Unions are inherently corrupt.
I for one do not think that all unions are corrupt. I am sure there are bad people in unions as they are in Wall street or in govt or in the whole population. Following your rationale then becomes difficult: You do not want to be forced to belong to such a group. Well suicide might then be your only way out.
Germany for instance has very strong unions and has a booming economy. Italy has strong unions and has economic problems. So here I give you an example for both situations. Of course you will just take the Italy case as proof of your theory.
Here a small suggestion to keep from the wonderful world of statistics: Correlation is not causation
or as I taught my students:
Just because 95% of cancer patients had salad in their lives, does not necessarily mean salad causes cancer.
Nice try. While I do respect your belief (or theory) what would it take for you to see how corrupt Unions are?
Can I provide you some documentation?
How about 1,000 documents showing Union corruption? Would you like 10,000 cases?
I think I could provide >100,000 cases of Union corruption.
The bottom line is (and with all due respect) that if you have a union mentality then no amount of proof would help you change your position.
How about this. Why are most new factories built in Right to Work states.
The most recent example is Kubota Tractor just built a new plant in Georgia a Right to Work state. Here is a list of manufacturers that have built plants in Right to Work states and Toyota's only union factory was NUMI in Fremont and they shot themselves in the foot and are now closed.
- Boeing - Toyota - Kubota - Nissan - VWagon - Isuzi - Suburu -the list goes on and on.
My opinion is that the new Apple factory will be built in a Right to Work state 9but we will see).
On a side note, what I am trying to get you to see is that California will never get any new factories (Texas will) because large companies will always got o a right to Work state.
Also talking about jobs when Feinstein chased the Navy out of here that may have cost us 100,000 jobs in Northern California and she is still in office!
Sorry to digress but all of the above are jobs are fiends and family will not ever have.
Those low-skill labor jobs such as support and manufacturing (which the unions lord over) are not just leaving the state, but they are being driven to irrelevance. With advances in manufacturing, automation, robotics, corporations can shift from investing in labor resources (made more expensive by unions) to capital resources (robots won't unionize). So while those unions will be driven towards extinction, so will those middle-income low-medium skill labor jobs. I don't worry about the power of unions simply for the fact that I know they will be driven out of existence. The problem is that so will many of you or your future generations who work in those job brackets. With advances in bespoke additive manufacturing, corporations no longer have to rely on economy of scale (e.g., going to factories in China). Labor arbitrage will no longer be the driver for China's dominance since capital costs would be the same whether you are a factory in China or in the U.S. And more importantly, we will have greater income inequality as high skilled scientists, engineers, etc. move to the upper income scale and low-mid skill labor moves to the lower scale as their jobs are outsourced or replaced by automation.
There is no way around this. Unions will eventually die out. Maybe it matters for you on a day-to-day basis if you are in a union job. It'll matter to your children even more when there is no work for them when they are old enough to start working. Some job classes like food services will persist longer, others like manufacturing are going to go pretty quickly.
I agree that LLNL should get rid of the union (if they somehow can). Negotiating salaries based on market rates could save the lab a pretty penny. Affected employees will have to live with less given rising housing costs and overall cost of living. But it's the price you must pay for getting rid of corruption and undesirable externalities brought on by unions. What other alternative is there other than to dismantle upte? The population of exempt employees are largely indifferent to the presence or absence of the union.
"However, union officials allege he has abused his position to get many a free lunch. They estimate he expenses $1,400 a month on food, much of it from catered events and meals he claims are for "union business."
Sorry I was not in the picture, he sent me out for pizza.
Being an exempt salaried professional at the lab, I wouldn't mind seeing all hourly workers de-unionized and then screwed over by the lab with heavily reduced salaries and benefitd. Collective bargaining inflates their salaries at the expense of exempt professionals like myself.
Yes I see your point. But I do know collective bargaining causes unrealistic pay in many cases (especially to high school graduates) who should not be making higher wages than a college graduate or Engineer.
Plumbers get over paid. That's like a price fixing cartel that needs to be broken up. Or better yet, just promote DIY to create an oversupply of plumbers and force them to compete and drive down prices shrink the number of plumbers so they can't collude.
Union people are not going to be offended by any anti-union rhetoric on this blog because union people can't read or write.
Look at me, I am a high school drop-out but I can hold a wrench. Since I have opposable thumbs which make me special, you need to pay me $100K/year or I'll throw a baby fit. It is not extortion because I use the money for eating constantly at Taco Bell and for buying American Idol merchandise.
I don't think unions do much good these days, but how can you fault people for doing their best to do well? If they can manage to make more than others (maybe with the same or less skill, expertise, and effort), then that's an example of succeeding, right?
If they can manage to make more than others (maybe with the same or less skill, expertise, and effort), then that's an example of succeeding, right?
June 10, 2013 at 4:57 PM
Yeah, today's self-important, self-absorbed assholes think gaming the system is "succeeding." What a joke. Your Momma taught you better than that. Grow a pair and take responsibility for your own capabilities and failures.
June 10, 2013 at 7:26 PM: "Grow a pair and take responsibility for your own capabilities and failures"
How can you say that and still come down on union members? Seems to me that they've taken responsibility and managed to get a better deal than they probably deserve. They're not complaining - this blog is complaining about them. It's those compainers that need to take responsibility.
40 comments:
It's a mute point because most of the lab's business is performed by non-union management, technical, scientific and engineering staff.
If you think the point is "mute" then if you bring it up it is no longer "mute." Perhaps you meant "moot"? Aggressive and disingenuous ignorance is not something to be proud of.
Your point is mute baybeeeeee
You are a very strange, sexually ambiguous person.
I think I saw that guy at the UPTE BBQ the other day.
He is a bonified lab manager for sure.
Grammar and spelling Nazis are never welcome on a casual blog forum.
Did you think your grammar school teachers were Nazis? Insistence on correct writing is every bit as valid a view as insistence on the right to be sloppy about it.
Dear people who do not appreciate the presence of SPSE at the LLNL.
I agree to disagree with your opinion for I strongly recommend the SPSE at the LLNL.
The SPSE has saved the necks of a number of employees at the Lab over the span of many years, mine included.
Without the help of SPSE, namely, the dedication of its representatives to LLNL's employees, my head would have been rolled a long, long time ago.
While disagreeing with your opposing view, I request your "civilized" language in criticizing the SPSE. Unless you can cite any specific example where the SPSE "deserves" to be called "name."
Unions are not necessary if management tells the truth and upholds promises over time. If they do no abuse employees, and when layoffs come they have above board processes without favortism. If the do otherwise they probalby will be sued and lose in court repeatedly. oooops, LLNL is in trouble. hmmmm Maybe a union will protect the Government's money from lawsuits, and employees from abuse! hmmm
To May 31, 2013 at 11:36 AM....
You must be a newcomer.
Let me explain the rules of this blog:
1. Reasonable discourse is not allowed
2. Facts are not allowed
3. You are required to post crap.
4. You get extra points if the crap is particularly hostile, without basis, and/or inflammatory
Now try again.
I think the point is that we can all agree
that Unions are inherently corrupt.
A picture is worth a 1,000 words if you click on the link.
And I accept your right to join a Union.
But I would be "forced" to join and that is not going to happen.
SPSE is not like a typical labor union. Discussions about how unions are a problem does not apply to the llnl. it is a mute point
Oh J-Dog must be in the population of non-exempts that are unionized, i.e., non-scientist/engineer. In that case, yes it makes sense that he complains about the union that is there to protect him.
Sorry I would like to comment more,
but it is time for my Union Mandated 45 minute coffee break.
You shouldn't be posting on blogs while you are on the clock
The lab should be hiring non-union employees at lower salary scales. Yeah the unions have power and are driving up labor costs above market rates. The lab should be allowed to hire non-union people to lower labor costs to free up more resources for the NIF experiments.
The lab can benefit greatly by paying market rate salaries and fewer benefits to non-union workers. Would be a win-win for the lab and for employees who hate the fact that they get above-market salaries.
Oh the irony... same with racists on welfare who hate Obama...the irony
You don't have to be a racist to hate Obama. Are the Blacks and Hispanics who hate Bush racists?
Jdog
Please do not make these grandiose assumptions:
I think the point is that we can all agree
that Unions are inherently corrupt.
I for one do not think that all unions are corrupt. I am sure there are bad people in unions as they are in Wall street or in govt or in the whole population. Following your rationale then becomes difficult:
You do not want to be forced to belong to such a group. Well suicide might then be your only way out.
Germany for instance has very strong unions and has a booming economy.
Italy has strong unions and has economic problems. So here I give you an example for both situations. Of course you will just take the Italy case as proof of your theory.
Here a small suggestion to keep from the wonderful world of statistics:
Correlation is not causation
or as I taught my students:
Just because 95% of cancer patients had salad in their lives, does not necessarily mean salad causes cancer.
Nice try.
While I do respect your belief (or theory) what would it take for you to see how corrupt Unions are?
Can I provide you some documentation?
How about 1,000 documents showing Union corruption?
Would you like 10,000 cases?
I think I could provide >100,000 cases of Union corruption.
The bottom line is (and with all due respect) that if you have a union mentality then no amount of proof would help you change your position.
How about this.
Why are most new factories built in Right to Work states.
The most recent example is Kubota Tractor just built a new plant in Georgia a Right to Work state.
Here is a list of manufacturers that have built plants in Right to Work states and Toyota's only union factory was NUMI in Fremont and they shot themselves in the foot and are now closed.
- Boeing
- Toyota
- Kubota
- Nissan
- VWagon
- Isuzi
- Suburu
-the list goes on and on.
My opinion is that the new Apple factory will be built in a Right to Work state 9but we will see).
On a side note,
what I am trying to get you to see is that California will never get any new factories (Texas will) because large companies will always got o a right to Work state.
Also talking about jobs when Feinstein chased the Navy out of here that may have cost us 100,000 jobs in Northern California and she is still in office!
Sorry to digress but all of the above are jobs are fiends and family will not ever have.
Yeah google, Cisco, apple, are going to move to Texas. Still waiting though
We don't care about low tech jobs moving out anyways, to make room for high tech.
Those low-skill labor jobs such as support and manufacturing (which the unions lord over) are not just leaving the state, but they are being driven to irrelevance. With advances in manufacturing, automation, robotics, corporations can shift from investing in labor resources (made more expensive by unions) to capital resources (robots won't unionize). So while those unions will be driven towards extinction, so will those middle-income low-medium skill labor jobs. I don't worry about the power of unions simply for the fact that I know they will be driven out of existence. The problem is that so will many of you or your future generations who work in those job brackets. With advances in bespoke additive manufacturing, corporations no longer have to rely on economy of scale (e.g., going to factories in China). Labor arbitrage will no longer be the driver for China's dominance since capital costs would be the same whether you are a factory in China or in the U.S. And more importantly, we will have greater income inequality as high skilled scientists, engineers, etc. move to the upper income scale and low-mid skill labor moves to the lower scale as their jobs are outsourced or replaced by automation.
There is no way around this. Unions will eventually die out. Maybe it matters for you on a day-to-day basis if you are in a union job. It'll matter to your children even more when there is no work for them when they are old enough to start working. Some job classes like food services will persist longer, others like manufacturing are going to go pretty quickly.
I agree that LLNL should get rid of the union (if they somehow can). Negotiating salaries based on market rates could save the lab a pretty penny. Affected employees will have to live with less given rising housing costs and overall cost of living. But it's the price you must pay for getting rid of corruption and undesirable externalities brought on by unions. What other alternative is there other than to dismantle upte? The population of exempt employees are largely indifferent to the presence or absence of the union.
If I was the Lab I would just stop hiring into Plant and start farming out the work until the troublemakers are gone through attrition.
Win/win for both sides.
Didn't I see the guy in the chair (click the link in the post) at the UPTE BBQ?
Sorry thought it was funnier the second time.
JDog, which one are you in the photo?
"However, union officials allege he has abused his position to get many a free lunch. They estimate he expenses $1,400 a month on food, much of it from catered events and meals he claims are for "union business."
Sorry I was not in the picture, he sent me out for pizza.
Being an exempt salaried professional at the lab, I wouldn't mind seeing all hourly workers de-unionized and then screwed over by the lab with heavily reduced salaries and benefitd. Collective bargaining inflates their salaries at the expense of exempt professionals like myself.
I do love anonymous blogs, don't you?
Was June 5, 2013 at 2:04 AM serious, or a pro-union imposter trying make exempts look nasty?
It's not clear, but the 2:04 am post time hints that (s)he is an imposter.
Let's take a poll. What do you think?
Yes I see your point.
But I do know collective bargaining causes unrealistic pay in many cases (especially to high school graduates)
who should not be making higher wages than a college graduate or Engineer.
Can I back that up with some examples?
Plumbers get over paid. That's like a price fixing cartel that needs to be broken up. Or better yet, just promote DIY to create an oversupply of plumbers and force them to compete and drive down prices shrink the number of plumbers so they can't collude.
Union people are not going to be offended by any anti-union rhetoric on this blog because union people can't read or write.
Look at me, I am a high school drop-out but I can hold a wrench. Since I have opposable thumbs which make me special, you need to pay me $100K/year or I'll throw a baby fit. It is not extortion because I use the money for eating constantly at Taco Bell and for buying American Idol merchandise.
Cost of living must be high for you
June 6, 2013 at 12:07 PM:
A little harsh, don't you think?
I don't think unions do much good these days, but how can you fault people for doing their best to do well? If they can manage to make more than others (maybe with the same or less skill, expertise, and effort), then that's an example of succeeding, right?
They might be a lot smarter than you think.
If they can manage to make more than others (maybe with the same or less skill, expertise, and effort), then that's an example of succeeding, right?
June 10, 2013 at 4:57 PM
Yeah, today's self-important, self-absorbed assholes think gaming the system is "succeeding." What a joke. Your Momma taught you better than that. Grow a pair and take responsibility for your own capabilities and failures.
June 10, 2013 at 7:26 PM: "Grow a pair and take responsibility for your own capabilities and failures"
How can you say that and still come down on union members? Seems to me that they've taken responsibility and managed to get a better deal than they probably deserve. They're not complaining - this blog is complaining about them. It's those compainers that need to take responsibility.
Seems to me that they've taken responsibility and managed to get a better deal than they probably deserve.
June 11, 2013 at 12:25 PM
That says it all. Getting better than you deserve isn't called "taking responsibility." It's called "cheating."
Only when the other guy does it
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